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+--- Thread: A sword for a tribune (/showthread.php?tid=8670)
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Re: A sword for a tribune - caiusbeerquitius - 01-27-2008
Is it only me thinking it, or are there actually parallels?
If so, the parazonium was very traditional, and most pieces probably rather old. (?)
Finds from Campovalano, middle Italy, Adria:
![[Image: Campovalano2.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/caiustarquitius/Campovalano2.jpg)
![[Image: unbenannt-1.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/caiustarquitius/unbenannt-1.jpg)
The Warrior of Capestrano:
![[Image: Caoestrano.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/caiustarquitius/Caoestrano.jpg)
Pictures from http://xoomer.alice.it/davmonac/sanniti/smarm01.html
Re: A sword for a tribune - Robert Vermaat - 01-27-2008
I can't see any of the pictures Christian...
Re: A sword for a tribune - caiusbeerquitius - 01-27-2008
Now they´re there.
Re: A sword for a tribune - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-27-2008
These look very much like a greek sword.
Re: A sword for a tribune - brennivs - tony drake - 01-27-2008
Yes Gaivs they are styled on Greek swords or may have been imported from Greece to the many Greek colonys in Italy
D Regards Brennivs
Re: A sword for a tribune - Dan Diffendale - 01-28-2008
Quote:Yes Gaivs they are styled on Greek swords or may have been imported from Greece to the many Greek colonys in ItalyThe sword with the elaborate chape comes from Tomb 69, Campovalano Necropolis, Abruzzo, and dates to the 7th or 6th century BCE. It's probably of local production, rather than a Greek import. There's a detail of the chape here. As a side note, the many Greek colonies in Italy did not rely on imports from Greece proper, but were in fact capable of their own production.
It always helps to put finds in their context.
The Warrior of Capestrano, for what it's worth, of course does not carry a line-drawing of a sword in his arms; you can what remains here. He's from 6th century BCE central Italy (Abruzzo), and definitely more illustrative of "native"/non-Greek types of armament, most clearly with his brimmed helmet and the disc cuirass. I'd be wary of using his fragmentary sword as a comparandum for Hellenistic Greek swords, and I *certainly* wouldn't call it a parazonium, or use it as a basis for one. I suppose one could argue that later Roman fancy swords were descendants of earlier proto-Praetuttian/pre-Samnite (or whatever you want to call them) fancy swords, but it seems tenuous at best.
Re: A sword for a tribune - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-28-2008
I would agree that the Colonies were very capable of doing their own thing, but it would still be an evolution of the style, which is very obvious.
The isolation allows individuality to creep in to a greater degree than a group in the same city state I would imagine. It is only human nature!
Re: A sword for a tribune - Dan Diffendale - 01-28-2008
I see no reason why this should have been a Greek production rather than a local, "pre-Samnite" one. I'm not sure what you're talking about with regards to isolation.
Re: A sword for a tribune - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-28-2008
As opposed to being down the road, if it was a greek colony producing it.
While it would not be 'totally' isolated from the mother cities, it would be isolated in a sense of communication. Weather being the big factor.
That is, a sense of isolation which will bring out the differences in a design.
It looks very much like greek influence to me dan, so I don' see a real issue here. You did say you thought the greek colonies made their own equipment, did you not.... or were you refering to something else when you said that about a post ago or so....?
Have you ever lived on the prairies Dan?
When you are limited in your means of transportation, and remember, they did not have TV or radio back then, you will be isolated for periods of time from the 'mother' cities.
That is what I mean by 'isolation'.
Re: A sword for a tribune - Dan Diffendale - 01-28-2008
No, I have never lived on the prairies. The landscape of southern Italy is, for the most part, decidedly un-prairielike. The Apulian Murge is similar, but there were no Greek colonies there. While weather may have prevented sailing on occasion, it was not so bad as to leave colonies in "isolation." Remember that the Greek colonies in Italy were not the European colonies in North America. They were in most cases not dependent on the metropolis for support, at least not by the 6th century BC, which seems to be what we're talking about here. (Of course, they would look for military support later, e.g. Taras applying for help from Sparta and elsewhere in the 4th century.) The desolate prairie ill compares with the landscape of 6th century BC South Italy. In addition to the Greeks -- and there were lots of Greeks -- there were Italians (and there were lots of Italians).
In any case, this is all mostly irrelevant since, as I believe, the sword is not of Greek manufacture but Italic.
Re: A sword for a tribune - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-28-2008
But of Greek style, and isolation can be quite relative. The landscape is not to what I refer, but the way in which an idea can change due to lack of continuous outside influence. And are we just limiting our topic to one sword, or the many posted above?