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Re: English language and ancient names - Robert Vermaat - 11-29-2004
Hi Theo,<br>
<br>
'DAR-ee-us' would be the correct rendering of the Greek/Latinized version. However, the original Old Persian name would be something like Daryavahvsh, which could well be pronounced as 'Dar-YA-oosh'. I bet there was some 'purist' involved, whose efforts were all for naught when they 'anglicized/americanised' the result.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Who's version is closer to the original latin ?<hr><br>
I'm pretty sure that was already common practise during Late Roman times.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 11/29/04 8:37 am<br></i>
English language and ancient times - Theodosius the Great - 11-29-2004
Ave Valerius.<br>
<br>
Yeah, you're probably right about the Darius pronounciation. Well, Hollywood is notorius for getting things wrong .<br>
<br>
About the Latin names losing their "us" endings though, you say that became common during late-Roman times ?<br>
<br>
If so, doesn't that suggest barbarian influence since the army's ranks were increasingly being packed with barbarian recruits ?<br>
<br>
Late-Roman society began adopting the army's customs like their dress (tunics), so their barbarized names probably caught on as well, think that's possible ?<br>
<br>
-Theo <p></p><i></i>
Re: English language and ancient times - Robert Vermaat - 11-29-2004
Quote:</em></strong><hr>About the Latin names losing their "us" endings [...] doesn't that suggest barbarian influence since the army's ranks were increasingly being packed with barbarian recruits ?<hr><br>
I think it has more to do with the development of Latin into Italian. There is no suggestion that any 'barbaric' linguistic influence was the case here. If at all, the so-called 'barbarians' (i.e. non-Romans) switched to Latin more often than the other way round. Roman culture was never seen as something bad by the Germans (best forget 20th c. propaganda), but something they desired to share.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Re: English language and ancient times - Dan Diffendale - 11-29-2004
The loss of the Latin case system had begun even during the "Classical" period in the spoken language. When dealing with the development of the Romance languages (Italian, French, Spanish, etc) from Latin, you have to remember that it was the <em>spoken</em> language that evolved, while the written language stayed frozen (relatively, anyway) up to the present day.<br>
<br>
It's a rule of linguistics that languages change, internally, at a constant rate. They do not become "degraded" or "barbaric" or "inferior" in any linguistic sense. They may borrow vocabulary or, more rarely, grammar, and can certainly be influenced by other languages. English has changed since Shakespeare wrote in it, and it's changed even more since "Beowulf" was written, but it hasn't become any worse (or better!), it's just changed (despite the protests of prescriptive grammarians and purists).<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>To understand why we native english speakers shorten these roman names, and many other words, is quite simple. We are lazy when it comes to foreign words or names incorporated into english. We are based on time efficent culture, which means we don't want to take the time to pronounce full words, so we shorten them. <hr><br>
<br>
That's really not the true story. I believe that the English names in -y come from French forms of the names, which people had occasion to use once William won at Hastings... and the French forms were just evolved through regular sound change from Latin.<br>
<br>
Also notice that such things are not fixed. Cicero used to be known widely in English as "Tully," but now of course you know him just as Cicero. Of course, you probably read that as /Sissero/ where an Italian would say /cheechero/ and Tully himself probably said /Keekero/, but someone passing him on the street might have said something closer to /cheechero/. So who's to say what's correct? <p></p><i></i>
Linguistics - Theodosius the Great - 11-29-2004
Ave, Danno.<br>
<br>
I think you hit the nail on the head.<br>
<br>
The later versions of latin names are just as legitamate as earlier ones since latin was an ever-evolving language.<br>
<br>
But I think the english spellings are closer to the oldest latin than our Romance language-speaking counter-parts'.<br>
<br>
-Theo <p></p><i></i>