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+--- Thread: Varro - leather armour? (/showthread.php?tid=17614)
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
I'm getting from this that the original armour was made from "straps" of rawhide. What other interpretations could be used for e loris?
Re: Varro - leather armour? - ScipioAsina - 10-03-2010
EDIT...
If I'm not mistaken, "e loris" could be taken as "of leather" or, less likely, as "of reins" (as in the reins of a bridle).
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
Quote:D B Campbell:10eksk3k Wrote:ScipioAsina:10eksk3k Wrote:... the iron gallica, a tunic of iron rings, was known by the same name.Varro says that it's a tunica ferrea made of rings, not the tunica ex annulis ferreis that you have translated. A minor point, but we may as well get it right. :wink:
Why, I believe you're right. Though I don't think it changes the meaning one way or another. Thanks anyway.
It does if one is trying to use the passage to support the argument that the Gauls invented mail. It makes a great deal of difference whether the iron used was gallic or the mail itself.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
Quote:I think its a big jump to use this to prove rawhide loricae in use?Why? It seems fairly clear to me unless people are translating the passage incorrectly.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - ScipioAsina - 10-03-2010
Quote:It does if one is trying to use the passage to support the argument that the Gauls invented mail. It makes a great deal of difference whether the iron used was gallic or the mail itself.Hmmm? *confused* As far as I can tell, I made the mistake of saying "tunic of iron rings" rather than "iron tunic of rings"; maybe I'm missing something here, but this does not affect the interpretation of the "iron gallica".
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
Ahh. Many thanks.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Paullus Scipio - 10-03-2010
To get back to Dan's original question, could our latin speakers elucidate the question of whether the pectorale/chest armour itself is of leather, or just the straps that held it? Is Varro's wording ambiguous?
Could the square or round metal chest-armour ( that Polybius calls 'cardio-phylax/heart protector), held on by a complex set of straps be what is being alluded to here?
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
Based on Jeff's translation it would seem that the armour itself was made of "straps". That seems more like scale/lamallar armour rather than a Tube-and-Yoke armour.
Could someone elaborate on other interpretations of e loris?
Side issue. The word "curiass" has the same origin (cuir = leather). The word was initially used to describe leather armour and later came to refer to metal armour.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - ScipioAsina - 10-03-2010
Let's see... "e loris" can also be taken as "of thongs" or "of strips"; perhaps these might make more sense if Varro is likening it to mail?
EDIT:
The Loeb translation (I'm quoting from a different book) evidently renders it as "chest armour from thongs of rawhide".
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
The term could refer to the narrow lames that are in examples such the Mars of Todi armour.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-03-2010
The Mars of Todi example is a good idea,and popular among the Etruscans.
What about something like the "Capestrano" warrior?
http://images1.fotoalbum.virgilio.it/v/ ... 004-vi.jpg
http://irenebrination.typepad.com/.a/6a ... 970c-320wi
http://www.g8italia2009.it/static/G8_Fo ... 00px,0.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/001_Etruscans.jpg
Cardiophylakes in general were suspenced by leather stripes,but this particular cuirass has such complexity that perhaps would excuse a name derived from them. But they don't seem to have ever been that common.
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Matthew Amt - 10-04-2010
Quote:Side issue. The word "curiass" has the same origin (cuir = leather). The word was initially used to describe leather armour and later came to refer to metal armour.
I know that's the accepted derivation, but I can't help wondering--*could* it be that "cuirass" came instead from "coeur", the French word for "heart"? It would take someone with a very good knowledge of medieval French AND Latin to be sure, I guess! Way beyond my skills, I'm afraid...
Sorry, I should just open a new topic on the Armour Archive for this one!
Matthew ("Troublemaker")
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Paullus Scipio - 10-04-2010
"Off topic": The french 'cuir' is undoubtedly 'leather' as in 'cuir boulli' (lit;boiled leather) a form of hardened leather armour.....
I don't believe the 'loris/lorica' in question could be of the Mars of Todi style - the lames/rectangular scales are short and broad, relatively, whereas 'loris' is leather straps, which as in English, implies long and narrow - thus 'loris' can mean thong, whip, dog-leash, or reins. I think the most likely candidate is the 'pectorale' of 'cardiophylax type with it's complex supporting structure of long leather straps.........
Re: Varro - leather armour? - D B Campbell - 10-04-2010
Quote:(I think he may mean the lori that hold the pectoral in place, rather than the pectoral being made of lori.)
Quote:I think the most likely candidate is the 'pectorale' of 'cardiophylax type with it's complex supporting structure of long leather straps.........
Great minds? :wink:
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-04-2010
So there is still no evidence for Roman leather armour except Dura Europos.