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+--- Thread: Single Combat during the Trojan War (/showthread.php?tid=17054)
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-27-2010
I am simply a martial artist interested in the subject of single combat. I put this thread in "Greek Re-Enactment and Reconstruction" because of the lack of evidence other than Homer(which I respect and question accuracy at the same time).
I am interested more in "possible" techniques and tactics used by the Trojans and Greeks respectively while keeping the arms and armor in consideration as much as possible; as well as cultural influences to style and function of armies and individual warriors. This is why I started and should have been more clear.Thanks!
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Paralus - 06-27-2010
Quote:I would open this up with the "BOLD" statement of Hector running around Troy attempting to wear out Achilles to fight on more favorable terms; NOT in fear as told by Homer (a Greek). The armies of Asia Minor (for example: The Persians) were trained to run long distance for faster travel and fighting in Desert Conditions classified as light infantry. Where as The Greeks favored a heavier infantry with better armor and strength.
Imagine an age when life was hard; winters regularly brought cold and death and summers the promise of a possible crop and the occasional cut and thrust with the neighbours over the range. Writing, if anyone within a day's walk knows it, is the preserve of a very, very few and reading of even less. Stories of earlier times - glorious times - are the panacea. Your premise proceeds from this time.
This is not to say that the Trojan War never, ever occured; just never really as described. Of course, I can be described as ignoring the "sources" here, but, if ins and outs of Thucydides are argued vociferously, one feels far less inclined to hang one's hat on what is a mouth to ear to mouth tradition - no matter that it was eventually committed to word.
This is the stuff of religion.
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - hoplite14gr - 06-27-2010
Hmmm.....
Gentlemen we are "loosing the ball", I think.
I believe Craig was basically examining single combat in the Ancient Greek world.
So to summarize, Single comabt or Champion Contest was present:
A) In the Bronze Age.
B) It was also present in the "Geometric Era".
C) Alkeos praised his brother Antimenidas in his poems for valor in a duel with an enemy champion (Archaic Age)
D) Herodotos mentions Athenian Sophanes who killed Epivatas the Argive in a duel in Aegina after Epivatas had alread slain three Atheninans. (classical age)
Kind regards
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-27-2010
Yes i agree, but thanks for the interesting information in the links Dan and Stefanos.
I guess it blows out the theory that Mycenae was relevant to the story then?
Very interesting armour developments, almost as if someone was doing segs for hollywood! (not the Dendra but the three from Thebes.)
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-27-2010
I am trying to get some techniques from images and sources that one could (with some degree of accuracy) train in performing. In my version of The Iliad by W.H.D. Rouse, "Hector draws his sword and leaps striking downwards at Achilles". Is there any depiction in images that could relate? Other examples of similar fashion are most welcome.
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Dithrambus - 06-27-2010
I am not aware of any specific references to particular techniques other than depictions on vase paintings and descriptions of combat by Homer, however I would point to the duel between Hector and Achilles in the film 'Troy', this is in my opinion the finest depiction of an ancient 'duel' on film, is it possible that Hollywood may have gotten something right? At least in the sense of how two 'champions' may have fought in the Bronze age?
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-27-2010
I hesitate because it is Hollywood. I do like the choreography as well at any rate I just question the choreographers where they drew their techniques from.
Quinny Sacks-Choreographer
Richard Ryan-Sword Master
and just for sheer sake-
James Rogers-Armorer
Stephen Ralphs- Archery Supplier and Consultant
according to this site-
[url:rp2hj6hh]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0332452/fullcredits#cast[/url]
As a further side note "When is the sequel covering "The Odyssey" starring Sean Bean coming out. He was an awesome Odysseus in my view. Use the same director casts where applicable for continuity and success is guaranteed" It has been six years so the timing would be perfect to start around now!
hock:
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Dithrambus - 06-27-2010
I agree with you of course, Hollywood is Hollywood, however I feel the choreographers used the tools at hand (the shield, spear and short sword) to great effect, the moves have a fluid and natural motion and lend themselves well to the weapons and vice-versa, it is not unreasonable to assume that similiar techniques were used by ancient warriors.
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-27-2010
Definitely not unreasonable! I hope that such techniques did exist. Makes it easier to cross over Asian Martial Arts training for use.
shock: The "dive roll" was a personal favorite that I refrain from doing any longer as I messed up once and it hurt quite a bit.Dive Roll- a leap clearing six feet in the air and diving head first into the mat finishing with a roll.
[url:1rg67evi]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2yLvRDwLUs[/url]
Take into account I am a little taller and more masculine! :lol:
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-27-2010
Would be a bit more painfull in a legionairies heavy equipment too, let alone a greek hoplite panoply... :o wink:
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-27-2010
Imagine a pole vault with a spear for knocking someone off of a horse or chariot. The Shaolin Monks use this technique and is a little flashy for today's standards but then it would be very applicable. Monkey style is very showy but there are more basic techniques. I practice them to an extent but I am a little too tall to get really acrobatic; Center of Gravity and all. I wish I had a video camera to demonstrate techniques myself.
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-27-2010
I doubt that many here have missed this but here it is none the less.
The Fight of Hector and Achilles
[url:2za049k5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf4IoxEUmHM[/url]
Again this I know is Hollywood but since it is known and discussed I post it here. Also leads to the other fights in the movie "Troy"
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-28-2010
I have an Interesting question.
"Did the Romans ever use Greek (born,equipped and/or trained) Gladiators to re-enact any battle of Troy or something similar?"
I will look myself but trust in the knowledge and resources of others more than my own generally. Roman Gladiatorial history isn't a strong point. From what I have gathered the trainers for Gladiators took their jobs very seriously and professionally. This may give something to discern in context to at least a closer time period even though still far removed. They would have at least more records than us of the Ancient world I think.
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Sean Manning - 06-28-2010
Quote:I am trying to get some techniques from images and sources that one could (with some degree of accuracy) train in performing. In my version of The Iliad by W.H.D. Rouse, "Hector draws his sword and leaps striking downwards at Achilles". Is there any depiction in images that could relate? Other examples of similar fashion are most welcome.I would get some spears and a big round shield and practice throwing the spears standing still and at a run. Also running carrying the spears and shield. I know of a few people trying to learn to fight with a hoplite's weapons, but I don't know of anyone else doing the same thing for Homeric warriors.
Re: Single Combat during the Trojan War - Astiryu1 - 06-28-2010
I have been Training for almost 2 years now in this style(though with cobbled together, inaccurate weaponry and shields). So you do know a person that is training somewhat in Bronze Age techniques! :wink:
Throwing a Javelin- by Craig Bellofatto
I have noticed that the classical pose with the shield raised actually helps with throwing. Here are my findings-
1. The pose opens up the chest for maximum motion capabilities.
2. The natural drop of the shield as you throw adds momentum.
3.The shield lowers naturally into the defensive position required.
pointers-
-A good left foot forward, right hand throw is best(reverse for southpaws/lefties). This adds the opposite and equal reaction in the body for maximum efficiency of the throw.( works also in unarmed techniques like kicking and punching )
-Drawing strength from (in order) your feet,knees,thighs,hips,abdomen,chest,shoulders,elbow,wrist and finally fingers in a forward thrust locking everything in a fluid motion is the key to the best throw possible.
-Expulsion of breath upon release of the Javelin/Longche helps with aim and muscle control.( A "kiai" or "spirit yell" is even better as it adds strength believe it or not and intimidates/impresses opponent/observers respectively.)
-an old martial arts rule is "you do not know how to do anything until you do it a thousand times" I would add that "5000 times makes you good and 10,000 times makes you an expert." Basically "practice makes perfect"!( I classify myself in between good and expert my friends upon observation and trying to do the same agree )
-These numbers are not an exaggeration "be serious; but have fun seriously!"
Good Luck!
P.S.- I need a video recorder to back up my claims; I will work on this!
[EDIT]: Running actually hurts your form but a skip forward is most helpful (Sorry! I forgot about the running)! :oops: