Quote:"Our sole authority is a single chapter in Livy (viii.8) , but it "is equalled by few others in compressed richness of information," and is in itself sufficiently intelligible, although tortured and elaborately corrupted by Lipsius and others, who were determined to force it into harmony with the words of Polybius, which represent, it is true, most accurately the state of a Roman army, but of a Roman army as it existed two centuries afterwards. According to the plain and obvious sense of the passage in question, the legion in the year B.C. 340 had thrown aside the arms and almost entirely discarded the tactics of the phalanx. It was now drawn up in three, or perhaps we ought to say, in five lines. The soldiers of the first line, called Hastati, consisted of youths in the first bloom of manhood (florem juvenem pubescentium in militiam) distributed into fifteen companies or maniples (manipuli), a moderate space being left between each. The maniple contained sixty privates, two centurions (centuriones), and a standard bearer (vexillarius); two thirds were heavily armed and bore the scutum or large oblong shield, the remainder carried only a spear (hasta) and light javelins (gaesa). The second line, the Principes, was composed of men in the full vigour of life, divided in like manner into fifteen maniples, all heavily armed (scutati omnes), and distinguished by the splendour of their equipments (insignibus maxime armis). The two lines of the Hastati and Principes taken together amounted to 30 maniples and formed the Antepilani. The third line, the Triarii, composed of tried veterans (veteranum militem spectatae virtutis), was also in fifteen divisions, but each of these was triple, containing 3 manipuli, 180 privates, 6 centurions, and 3 vexillarii. In these triple manipuli the veterans or triarii proper formed the front ranks; immediately behind them stood the Rorarii, inferior in age and prowess (minus roboris aetate factisque), while the Accensi or supernumeraries, less trustworthy than either (minimae fiducia manum), were posted in the extreme rear".

by William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D.

Quote:The ultimate question is: why were the weak troops placed in the back in the first place? Polybius writes that it is the investigation of causes that actually tells a whole picture. Merely saying that facts were so and so tells very little. The reason for my question is that I'm making a Classical (Roman) mod for Medieval II: Total War, and find that I am hard-pressed to find any rational reason to include the Rorarii and Accensi in the Roman roster.

Quote:I concur with Mitra that the Rorarri were light infantry, fo what that is worth.

"...[13] at the same time the Romans —their spirits relieved of religious fears —pressed on as though the signal had just then for the first time been given, and delivered a fresh attack; [14] for the rorarii were running out between the antepilani and were joining their strength to that of the hastati and the principles, and the triarii, kneeling on the right knee, were waiting till the consul signed to them to rise".

Livy 8.9

Quote:The reasons that the Polybian battle order with hastati, principes, and triarii is wasteful in RTW should be easy to see if you look at what aspects of that formation the game doesn't model.

Quote:Yet, what tactical significance did they bear which couldn't be fulfilled if they were absorbed into the hastati or principes? This is exactly what the punic war Romans did: abolishing the rorarii and accensi through stronger training, heavier equipment, and a merge with the hastati and principes; or else throwing them out of the army if they proved to be too poor. Given that, what thought process led the samnite wars Romans to think differently and add/separate these two classes? It's simply a managerial nightmare to find roles for 5 essentially similar yet superficially different versions of infantry.

Quote:"Yet, what tactical significance did they bear which couldn't be fulfilled if they were absorbed into the hastati or principes? This is exactly what the punic war Romans did: abolishing the rorarii and accensi through stronger training, heavier equipment, and a merge with the hastati and principes; or else throwing them out of the army if they proved to be too poor. Given that, what thought process led the samnite wars Romans to think differently? It seems to be a managerial nightmare to find roles for 5 essentially similar yet superficially different versions of infantry".

I am not sure I follow you on this one. What makes you feel that the rorarri and accensi were "absorbed" into the hastati and principes, rather than being renamed velites?

Quote:I too remember a case where the rorarri were mistakened for triarii, but do not remember offhand the section in Livy. Doyou have the citation location? It might well be worth reading again.

Quote:In the battle that Livy describes,(VIII.9.9) the 'Rorarii' run out between the 'Antepilani' (Hastati and Principes) and join battle. The Latins seemingly are not surprised by this and possibly commit their own equivalents, and the struggle continues. Meanwhile the 'Triarii' continue to kneel in the rear, while the Consul prevaricates on whether to commit them yet. Finally he commits the 'Accensi' instead and, in Livy's words:
"No sooner had they gone up, than the Latins, supposing their enemies had done the same, sent in their own 'Triarii'. These, having fought fiercely for some time, and worn themselves out and broken or blunted their spears, yet were driving back the (Roman) foe, and supposed that they had already won the field and penetrated the last line, when the Consul cried out to the Roman 'Triarii'.....When the 'Triarii' had got to their feet, fresh and sound in their glittering armour, a new and unforeseen array, they received the 'Antepilani' into the gaps between between their files (implying they were still in 'open' order; elsewhere Livy tells us that the 'Triarii' 'closed up'and fought as a solid line), and, raising a shout, threw the enemy's front ranks into disorder...."

Quote:For some time Manlius was in doubt whether the moment had not come for calling up the triarii, but judging it better for them to be kept fresh till the final crisis of the battle, he gave orders for the accensi at the extreme rear to advance to the front. When they came up, the Latins, taking them for the opposing triarii, instantly called up their own.