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+--- Thread: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) (/showthread.php?tid=14154)
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tim Edwards - 08-31-2010
Crispus - which pieces from Hod Hill do you mean?
The scrolled palmettes can also be found on Mainz type scabbards too, such as on the Porto Novo find.
Off the top of my head, the earliest irrefutable Pompeii scabbard furniture I can think of in the UK is from Loughor (Flavian?)
Maybe the blades themselves are a better guide than scabbard furniture.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 08-31-2010
Well the pieces from Hod Hill aren't definitely Pompeii parts. They just seem about the right size. I am following Martin White here (article in 'Exercitus' from a few years back). I think you are right that the earliest indisputable Pompeii type evidence is Loughor. Do we know any sort of date for the Long Windsor sword incidentally?
Magnus,
If your sword knocks against your greaves or interferes with your walk, perhaps the issue is not so much that the baldric is not strapped down, so much as that you baldric may be a bit long. I gave up passing my belt over my sword baldric more than three years ago. To begin with, I found, like you, that it got in the way as I walked. However, I then went back and looked at lots of stelae and noticed that sword pommels are fairly consistently shown quite close to the armpit. I shortened my baldric until my sword pommel seemed to be at about that height and tried it at that length for the next show. Lo and behold, this seemed about right and I have never had anything but the most minor of problems with it ever since. Obviously I know than Favonius Facilis is shown with a very long baldric, but he really is the exception.
Sometimes it can be instructive going back and trying to imitate what we see in the surviving evidence. I went looking for evidence for baldrics being secured by belts and ended up noticing the evidence for baldrics being short enough not to require belts in any case.
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Magnus - 09-01-2010
Nope, baldric is the perfect length, with the pommel of my sword resting at my armpit. Unless you're 7 feet tall, the tip of the sword is going to hang down by your knee. I'm only 5'8". Not to mention I find the sword can shift in position forward and back if not secured well.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 09-02-2010
Well, I've only got a half inch height advantage over you Matt. To be honest, my sword does shift about a bit too, but if it shifts too far one way or the other it is no trouble to pull it back into place with a quick pull on the baldric. I can do this with little difficulty even on the march while carrying a shield and pilum.
It might be a little like when I first started in Roman re-enactment. I was continually bashing my left shin against the lower corner of my scutum. After a while though, this stopped happening. I don't know what I had started doing differently. I just naturally and unconsciously developed a way of walking which did not result in cuts and bruises to my left shin. I think something very similar happened when I started wearing my sword unbelted. It was certainly not plain sailing to begin with but I quickly found that the initial problems melted away.
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Magnus - 09-03-2010
Normally it's just an annoyance, with the scabbard shifting forward and bouncing off my knee as I run, or am in combat. Now however with my greaves, if I bend my knee forward the tip of the sheeth has actually gotten stuck in the gap between the top of the greave and my knee cap....straightening it causes all kinds of problems, from crushing my knee cap to having the sword get pushed up into my inner arm/arm pit.
So it isn't an option for me...plus having the sword shift forward can cause drawing issues if it isn't in the right position. I'd say you're safe if you're just doing light duties, but anything requiring a lot of body movement/changes in momentum and you're going to run into problems. Though I am considering using a thong to secure the sword directly to my belt...as it stands, the sword baldric pulls my one phalerae off to the side anyway, so I'm trying to figure out how to avoid that.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - jkaler48 - 09-03-2010
Yes! Leather thongs = The Roman Legion's Duct tape! Never take to the field without them/it!
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Magnus - 09-03-2010
Agreed.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - agrimensor - 09-07-2010
Some pictures of my attempt for a easy way for a gladius and pugio baldrick[attachment=2:37v84ipc]<!-- ia2 kruiszwaard.jpg<!-- ia2 [/attachment:37v84ipc][attachment=1:37v84ipc]<!-- ia1 pugiokruis.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:37v84ipc][attachment=0:37v84ipc]<!-- ia0 pugiovoorkant.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:37v84ipc]
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - jvrjenivs - 09-07-2010
Hi Jos, thanks for posting those pictures. It really looks promising. I only think the pugio hangs too loose. Should be more short/secure to the belt.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - agrimensor - 09-07-2010
Quote:Hi Jos, thanks for posting those pictures. It really looks promising. I only think the pugio hangs too loose. Should be more short/secure to the belt.I'll try to shorten it
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 09-07-2010
Jos,
Thanks for posting up your pictures.
Firstly, your sword suspension. I think your method works well and is certainly possible. There are quite a number of sculptural depictions of Roman solders where the sword scabbards' suspension rings are not visible and it is certainly a possibility that they are intended to be understood to have been drawn back in much the same way that your suspension system does. Therefore, I think that it is certainly a possible solution to at least one way that the Romans may have suspended their swords. Well done.
Secondly, your dagger suspension. The above comments do not really apply to pugio suspension. There are no sculptural depictions of pugiones which show or suggest the lower suspension rings being connected to suspension straps and this is borne out by the evidence of excavated examples, as I have pointed out a number of times already in this thread.
There is also no evidence to suggest pugiones being carried on short straps connected to widely spaced frogs which caused them to hang below the line of the belt. This is a modern convention and finds no support in contemporary depictions. A quick look through the imagebase will demonstrate that pugio sheaths are consistently shown with the upper suspension rings in line with and often touching both frog buttons. No suspension straps are shown and there is no space for such straps in any case. Frog plates are also shown much closer together than most modern re-enactors place theirs. In all likelihood, they were attached to the sheaths' suspension rings with tightly tied leather thongs, but certainly not short straps as usually depicted these days, although a strap or lace passing between the frogs and through the upper suspension rings is also possible.
It is also worth noting that where sometimes in sculptural depictions sword scabbards' suspension rings are not visible and may be intended, as suggested above, to be understood to be drawn back by their own suspension straps, the rings of the pugio sheaths have been very carefully depicted, showing that they have not been drawn back and that the lower rings are very definitely hanging free and unused.
In short then, while you are to be rightly congratulated on your suggestion for the sword suggestion, the same method cannot be right for the dagger. Why the Romans would do things differently for each weapon is beyond me - they just did and unfortunately we have to acknowledge that. :wink:
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - agrimensor - 09-08-2010
for the dagger i'll try and have an alternative idea to make someting like the leather endings of old suspenders a leather strap with two hole's in it (it is a little like a 8) maybe this will work. the leather belts can be used for something else. the scutum i'm constructing.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-08-2010
Not very creative, but I just tie the top suspension rings directly to the frogs.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - M. Demetrius - 09-08-2010
Yep. That's the way I'm doing it, too, GJC. One one belt, I took off the frogs, added another belt plate, and replaced the frog. That shrunk the gap just enough for tying the pugio on.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Peroni - 09-08-2010
Crispvs wrote...
Quote:A quick look through the imagebase will demonstrate that pugio sheaths are consistently shown with the upper suspension rings in line with and often touching both frog buttons. No suspension straps are shown and there is no space for such straps in any case.
Oh! Yes there is!! I use small straps that are 25mm long when folded. A simple slot is cut along the entire length of the strap
This is with thonging..but the dagger is at the height shown on the funerary stones from the Rhineland
![[Image: DSCF2632.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/DSCF2632.jpg)