+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) (/showthread.php?tid=14154)
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - caiusbeerquitius - 01-28-2009
Quote:a segmentata type buckleThis seems to be the only buckle that was found in the grave, so one might assume that it is the actual belt buckle.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tarbicus - 01-28-2009
I hate to say it: Could it be a baldric buckle? :wink:
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - caiusbeerquitius - 01-28-2009
Could be, but then the soldier wouldn´t have had a belt. Or at least he wouldn´t have had a belt with a buckle.
If it were a baldric, what would the fasteners be good for, then? Fixing the sword to the baldric?
Belt / Baldric:
![[Image: beltbaldric.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/caiustarquitius/beltbaldric.jpg)
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 01-28-2009
I have often wondered whether the buckle might have been able to be used this way on a baldric, particularly if it was a short baldric as seems to be indicated by a number of sculptures, which might be hard to put on over armour. Please excuse my poor abilities with computer art.
![[Image: Bucklesuspension.jpg]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Crispvs/Bucklesuspension.jpg)
Front view .................................................................................. Back view
I have discussed this possibility in this article:
http://www.romanarmy.net/artweapons.htm
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-28-2009
As you might expect on a soldier......
Where is the mainz guard plate, or is it not in the sketches? :?
I see what look like axes, and a large disc.....
The rest are self explanetory....
Crispus, why rule out the double connection at the rear, which is usually obscured in the stele and other sculptural reliefs?
The belt has no need to pass over the front stap on a baldric, only one of the 2 at the rear to keep it in position and still allow the gladius to be in both the correct position and at a slight angle to stop it interfereing with your gait.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 01-28-2009
Crispvs. I might be inclined to agree that a pugio may have been held to frogs of a belt by thongs in particular where the frog discs are large, however I cannot agree with your idea that a buckle was ever used on a baldric in the way that you show. I am sure that a short baldric which holds a pommel in the armpit area should be able to go over most armour, indeed in a more comfortable way than you show with a buckle that could turn out to be such a fumble of a job.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 01-29-2009
Gaius Julius
The large disc is the Mainz guard plate. Or the gladius guard plate, if you prefer. Often ther were decorated, as this one, and be completely circular instead oval.
There is the plate iserted in the lower part of the guard, in contact with the blade.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tarbicus - 01-29-2009
Quote:Gaius Julius
The large disc is the Mainz guard plate......Often ther were decorated, as this one,
Oh cool. Never reailised that, Cesar. Thanks :wink:
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-29-2009
Quote:Gaius Julius
The large disc is the Mainz guard plate. Or the gladius guard plate, if you prefer. Often ther were decorated, as this one, and be completely circular instead oval.
There is the plate iserted in the lower part of the guard, in contact with the blade.
Thanks, I see the slot now.... :oops:
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 01-29-2009
"Crispus, why rule out the double connection at the rear, which is usually obscured in the stele and other sculptural reliefs?"
Well, if you can provide me with evidence for that double connection (here I assume you mean the split strap attached to the rear suspension rings used by most re-enactors) then please do. As I am sure you are aware I am always keen to get my hands on new information. Otherwise it is merely an assumption, albeit one which seems to work well.
Regarding the correct position of the scabbard, if it is true that the scabbard would often, although not always, be positioned so that the part between the upper and lower suspension rings was level with the belt, then the expedient of passing the belt through the assumed split strap would not work well, unless the split was very short.
Why though, do you not have more faith in the idea (supported by sculptural evidence as I point out in the article I put a link to above) that a scabbard on a baldric simply does not need to be held in position by a belt. As you know, I have been carrying my sword this way for more than two years now and have found no real problems with it.
Do not take your lessons from what you see in pictures or what you see other re-enactors doing unless you first check on the quality of the evidence they have based it on. Start from the evidence and work out from there. That is what I did and where it led me works well.
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-29-2009
Err, ok Crispus. :wink:
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - agrimensor - 08-30-2010
i experemented with a one size fits all baldrick. It is a belt with on both ends a row of holes which can hols a double rivet.
Both the ends go through the top ring to the bottom ring and back up where the rivet close the belts.
So on the back site of the scabbard the two belts cross. It is easy ajustable to with or without armor. Second it it is very easy to construct.
I don't know if it is historicly correct (as is my English
) bot proof of any baldricks is not found is it.Agrimensor
lucius flavius sinister
AKA Jos Cremers
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Lunico - 08-30-2010
Hey guys, I hope It's not too much of a dumb question, but when did the Pompeji type gladius come in service among the legionairs? Did the roman troops during the invasion of britain in 43 AD still use the Mainz type?
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 08-31-2010
The Mainz type was definitely still in service at the time of the invasion of Britain, as an example was found in the River Thames at Fulham. The Pompeii type was probably also in use by that time as well, as what appear to be Pompeii type scabbard parts were found at Hod Hill in Dorset, which was one of the hill fort captured by Vespasian in AD43, although as a small Roman fort was built in one corner of the hill fort it is possible that these parts might date to a date a year or two later but it would still be within a decade of the invasion.
The baldric idea sounds interesting.
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Magnus - 08-31-2010
I have found myself personally, and certainly those reenactors that I've spoken to, is that not putting the belt over the baldric (or at least one of the straps) means the sword moves around way too much. I have found it starts to drift forward and interferes with either my centurion greeves, or just walking in general. Practically, I don't see how you could not secure it tighter to the body.