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+--- Thread: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) (/showthread.php?tid=4789)
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 04-16-2006
Quote:The debate about whether it was ceremonial or functional rages there. Beware!
Turn back now while you still can!
:lol: Why is when we find a metal cuirass it must've been ceremonial while the linthorax must've been more common even though none has been found (I think). Don't answer that, please :roll:
Quote:Hadn't heard about the leather covering at all. Most likely it was just nice shiny iron with gold trim.
I read that from my book : Alexander the Great : Man of Action, Man of Spirit (1996) which says it's iron covered with leather and fabric. I didn't see that last part for some reason. The book has tons of colored photographs and it's so small.
Quote:It's definitely a linothorax translated into iron, and the only one of its kind found so far.
Thanks, Matthew.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Dan Howard - 04-16-2006
Quote:I read that from my book : Alexander the Great : Man of Action, Man of Spirit (1996) which says it's iron covered with leather and fabric.
The book is wrong. There is no evidence for a leather cover on the Vergina cuirass. It wasn't covered with linen either though it is possible that it had a linen liner.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 03-21-2007
Ave Travis,
I found another statue just like the nude Antonius Pius showing a leather subarmalis or musculata.
This one is a nude Mars.
And here's your photo of Pius.
Interesting how it seems to be associated only with nude statues.
So, you may be on to something here .....
~Theo
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Aurelianus - 03-21-2007
Great observation!!!!
Laudes
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Tarbicus - 03-21-2007
Quote:I found another statue just like the nude Antonius Pius showing a leather subarmalis or musculata.There's actually no way of saying they're leather, and they could just as easily be made of textile of some sort. Sorry, but it's just a plain fact, unless you can offer photos showing a clear difference between the surface texture of the cloak and 'other' subarmalis/armour.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 03-21-2007
I'm skeptical about leather as well - in fact, of any kind of fabric - armor. However, in this Hadrianic example it looks like there might be some musculature on the "armor." Afaik, only leather or metal can do this. It's clearly not metal.
Travis does have some close-ups of the Pius statue
here
here
here
and here
~Theo
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - RUBICON - 03-22-2007
My apologies if I have scanned through this debate. I am currently attempting through my saddle maker to attempt to create a leather cuirass, currently we are creating a mould of a bust.
My understanding of old leather bridles and saddles I have is that leather goes hard and cracks and become brittle. I have stabbed old leather straps even thick saddle pads and they have penetrated quite easily. How thick it needs to be, i dont know yet but leather is fibrous so any pointed object with some weight will penetrate.
Unless the leather is kept oiled it looks quite brittle, cracks & looks revolting, therefore as a battle ready armour, enduring rain and if it is meant to be hard to withstand projectiles or stabs, it would soon look brittle and cracked., rendering it even less suitable.
My guess it was for parade purposes only
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Tarbicus - 03-22-2007
Quote:this Hadrianic example[/url] it looks like there might be some musculature on the "armor." Afaik, only leather or metal can do this.Indeed, that one would logically follow as being moulded into a shape, so probably leather. Not effective as armour to be able to bend so, most likely. The other two aren't quite the same, so I had to point out they could be textile.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Sulla - 03-24-2007
I have been doing some research on historic leather armor. I think both were worn depending on where it was used and by who. But any way there are two interesting links will add more if I find them.
Leather Cuirass (It is described by Carter as 'made up of scales of thick tinted leather worked onto a linen basis, or lining, in the form of a ...bodice without sleeves'.)
[url:1op05xl6]http://touregypt.net/museum/armorpage.htm[/url]
Leather Horse Armor
[url:1op05xl6]http://www.tylersterritory.com/travel/china/wuhan/wuhan-03.html[/url]
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 03-24-2007
Wow, we sure have to travel far in both time and space to find actual examples.
One blow to the leather argument is that no Roman examples survive. And we have TONS of leatherwork that survive from the Roman period - mostly boots. But no armor, not even a few pteruges.
The best thing that does survive from the relevant place and period is that weird crocodile suit from Roman Egypt.
~Theo
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Sulla - 03-24-2007
You should probobly add "that I know of" to some of that.
There are lots of things floating around that are disocvered but that we have not seen.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Sulla - 03-24-2007
Just curios is this closest we get to a muscalata from the 1st century?
Image of Curios Piece
Quote:ROMAN MUSCLE CUIRASS ARMOR PIECE WITH NEMESIS CHEST TONDOMore.....[url:2jk7f9kg]http://romanofficer.com/marblelogo.htm#armorpiece[/url]
Material: Bronze
Era: Early 2nd Century AD
Culture: Roman
Style: Greco/Roman
Origin: From an old English collection, purportedly found in North Africa in the 1930s.
This is an Early 2nd Century AD Bronze Muscle Cuirass Piece with a Nemesis (Greek Goddess Of Retribution) Armor Chest Tondo. As there are no other known examples of Roman cuirass armor, this artifact is a highly important artifact. The piece is 28 cm x 27 cm and is made of very thin flexible sheet bronze, this thinness of the metal explains why there have been no other finds of this type of Roman armor. It weighs approximately 11 oz with half of that weight belonging to the nemesis tondo. The piece's collar rim is rolled and the tondo is attached by three rivet nails with a fourth one missing. The bronze sheet's workmanship is refined and shows very little evidence of hammering. Encircling the armor chest tondo is a small amount of dark discoloration. Starting approximately 3 inches below the chest tondo and continuing to the piece's bottom edges is a shiny residue with a similar but darker discoloration. This may be the petrified remnants of wax that would have once been used as a lightweight back filler for gold, silver, or gold and silver appliques applied to the armor. This discoloration and statues depicting cuirasses from this period indicate there were very likely more appliques which were applied to the armor in addition to the nemesis tondo, although the nemesis is the only remaining decoration on this piece. The nemesis tondo should have originally had a circular applique mounting over the nail rivets that would have had a gold or silver foil covering on the face of the tondo. With a thin leather or cloth lining the armor would have been extremely attractive, lightweight, and comfortable. There is no evidence of any gilding or silvering with this armor piece. I suspect that this armor had been stripped of its precious metal appliques, foil, or both in antiquity. The region where this artifact was purportedly found was where the ancient Roman province of Mauritania had once been. This province had one legion (Legion VIII Augusta) which means that the Roman Governor was also the legion's Legate (Commander).
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 03-24-2007
Yeah, that's an exciting find. T M Valerius showed it to me last year. But I'm surprised no one else until now has brought it up again. I thought maybe this was because it hadn't been verified as real.
(Earlier I meant that no leather lorica musculatae survives that anyone knows of. Now there might be some fragments of lamellar armor but I don't know about that or if it's all that relevant to the discussion)
~Theo
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Sulla - 03-24-2007
Yes I thought it was very interesting also. Just curios as you if its what it says it is. But it sure looks like it.
Oh also found some more images I had not seen. Look at
http://www.truefork.org/Photography/Roman_Martial_Sculpture.php
Several with muscalata including one standing next to a naked man but standing upright. Its titled "Venus and Mars as young man preparing for war".
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 03-24-2007
Oh yeah, another Mars statuelike the one I posted a couple of days ago. That makes four statues that I know of with this nude / "armor" motif. That's really too bad we don't have a close-up. It looks extremely detailed.
~Theo