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+--- Thread: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) (/showthread.php?tid=14154)
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 12-29-2008
There is the situation of assumptions when we read archaeological papers that say "from such and such we can safely assume" it to be. I'm afraid that after being in the Airforce for 22yrs working on aircraft we had posters all over the place saying "Do not assume Check" and it was just that for one can never safely assume anything.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tim Edwards - 12-29-2008
Cant disagree with you there David.
What we can do however, is start to hunt down parallel examples occurring in context.
When one occurs in context we could ascribe it to pure depositional fluke, or a practice that simply was not typical.
When more examples start occurring, it begins to look a lot less like a coincidence.
This is why I made refererence to the button and loop fasteners being found amongst military equipment in early first century graves from Eastern Europe, there are a few examples from Verdun in Slovenia.
The million dollar question is: in these specific context were these button and loop fastenings belonging to the belt sets (as some of us suspect) or were they cloak fastenings (as Brian suspects).
I suggest that what now needs to happen is for one of us to find the relevant archaeological reports and see what the excavators have to say.
Are there any diligent scholars out there who can help?!
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 12-29-2008
Tim. I am inclined to think that in a burial situation and only one of these items being found, might we not consider that the people who bury things such as a sword they might just have the reverence to lay it upon a cloak. Then as you also say it would be much better to know from excavation reports just how things are found, for when we look at the things in Miks' drawings we find Lorica chest fasteners, bits of decorative metal, beltplates, and of course one very common type cloak fastener.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-29-2008
I tend to agree with brian about the cloak theory. It would seem a very logical thing to do.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Crispvs - 01-04-2009
Brian,
The "bits of decorative metal" are all belt plates and constitute the main evidence for the existence of the belt. The "lorica chest fasteners" are in fact a single hinged buckle which appears to be the same as a Corbridge type segmentata buckle. Dreschler-Erb suggested that this buckle could have helped to secure the sword scabbard to the belt and I have already made the alternative suggestion in this thread that it could have represented a field repair to replace a lost component. Of course, these suggestions still do not rule out the possibility that it was unrelated to the othe item buried with it in the barrack room.
Crispvs
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 01-04-2009
Crispvs. I don't have the Deschler - Erb paper but I would like to know just how wide this (suggested) belt he talks about would have been, and I think it is a bit of a bold statement to say the decorative pieces are beltplates. Then as far as the buckle from a segmentata being used as a field repair to secure the sword, please explain just how that would have been done and what is the lost component.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 01-04-2009
The los component could be the another fastener :wink: .
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 01-05-2009
Cesar. I cannot accept the idea that there may have been another button loop fastener when infact only one such item was found, it's like trying to say there may have been another beltplate or indeed another lorica segmentata buckle. There was only one button loop fastener and it is pure speculation on the part of anyone to suggest that there were 2 which suspended a sword. There is also as pointed out by Crispvs that Deschler - Erb suggested that the segmentata buckle may have helped to support the sword, I just wonder where do we draw a line with all of this speculation of this then that to justify a theory.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tarbicus - 01-05-2009
Brian, frogs attached to plates aren't found in pairs either.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 01-05-2009
Jim. I do agree with you on that however this is a different Kettle of Fish entirely where many are determined to create another button loop cloak fastener that was never there to justify some ones theory. Then Deschler - Erb switches from that theory to the seg buckle supporting the sword to try to justify the reason for only ONE button loop fastener.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tarbicus - 01-05-2009
Quote:...another button loop cloak fastener that was never there...How do we know plated frogs came in pairs?
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Peroni - 01-05-2009
Quote:How do we know plated frogs came in pairs?
Statuary, in particular - grave stelae?
The Velsen find had two as did the Herculaneum chap on his belt.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Tarbicus - 01-05-2009
Quote:Quote:How do we know plated frogs came in pairs?
Statuary, in particular - grave stelae?
The Velsen find had two as did the Herculaneum chap on his belt.
Are all of the statuary examples plated frogs? Why can't they be fasteners instead?
The Velsen and Herculaneum paired frogs are two examples out of many finds; more an exception than a rule.
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-05-2009
Were there not frogs found at Kalkriese?
Re: How To.. wear the Pugio and Gladius (belts, fasteners) - PhilusEstilius - 01-05-2009
There were also a complete set of everything at Chichester buckle with it's plate, beltplates, one with a ring possibly for an extra sword strap, and then the two dagger frogs complete on their plates.