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+--- Thread: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) (/showthread.php?tid=4789)
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 03-10-2006
It seems to me that there's a conflict between the literary and archeological evidence regarding the musculata.
Many, like Matthew Amt, insist that it should be shiny because of the literary sources. But Travis points out that there's some paint residue on the statuary.
It seems to me that you can't have both shiny and painted armor - or can you while using period methods ?
If I have to choose, I'll go with the literary evidence because there are alternate interpretations about the paint on the statuary.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Crispvs - 03-11-2006
Complately OT here I know, but on the link Dan posted to the Bronze Age discussion group there was a link to the White Rose Armoury site and on that site I found this:
http://www.whiterosearmoury.co.uk/New%2 ... %20140.jpg
This is my own Imperial Gallic type 'F' helmet, which White Rose made for me six and a half years ago and which I have worn ever since. This photo was obviously taken before they sent it to me, as it wasn't anything like that shiny and new looking when I temporarily returned to them to get new cheek guards made in the correct size a couple of years later. For some reason they have labled it as a type 'I' on the site. Someone (not Dave Greenalph) probably got confused by the feather tubes.
As I said, this is completely OT, but as it is the most beautiful piece of kit I own I was rather excited to see that its maker was proud enough to have featured a picture of it on his website!
D D lol: :lol: :lol: D D 8) Crispvs
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - tlclark - 03-14-2006
What do we think about this:
http://www.livius.org/a/1/legio/xxvv_centurio.JPG
It has an anatomical waistline, but a shoulder harness more like a hamata.
Is this a musculata or a hamata?
Ideas?
Could this be a test case for leather armor?
Travis
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - FlaviusCrispus - 03-14-2006
This is our old friend Marcus Favonius Facilis in the museum of Colchester. I've seen this up wonderful piece close and personal, and as I recall, the surface of his cuirass is very lightly textured to indicate mail. It's definitely a hamata with the lower edge "scooped" in imitation of a muscle cuirass.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - tlclark - 03-14-2006
Quote:This is our old friend Marcus Favonius Facilis in the museum of Colchester. I've seen this up wonderful piece close and personal, and as I recall, the surface of his cuirass is very lightly textured to indicate mail. It's definitely a hamata with the lower edge "scooped" in imitation of a muscle cuirass.
Thanks!
Presumably an anatomical waistline indicates a desire to emulate a musculata.
So we have yet MORE evidence that the musculata is a class, not a type, and quoted far and wide.
The musculata remains the thorniest type of armor I know.
Thanks again!!
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - FlaviusCrispus - 03-15-2006
<<Presumably an anatomical waistline indicates a desire to emulate a musculata...>>
...or maybe a desire not to get stabbed in the lower belly!
<<So we have yet MORE evidence that the musculata is a class, not a type, and quoted far and wide...>>
Well, OK. But it seems to me the Roman mail shirt was modeled more on the Greek linothorax. Particularly this one, with the ultra long shoulder doubling, which doesn't much resemble a muscle cuirass at all. The scooped lower edge might just be a little "custom flourish," a Centurion saying, "see, I've got the extra cash to have my mail specifically tailored to look snazzy with my subarmalis and pteruges." And there's probably some desire to emulate the muscle cuirass of a senior officer as well, albeit in a more combat-ready form— remember, Centurions led from the front right and were in the thick of fighting, so their armor needs to be practical and protective as well as pretty.
<<The musculata remains the thorniest type of armor I know>>
Would those thorns be mounted on the outside of the cuirass, or (ouch!) on the inside...
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - drsrob - 03-15-2006
Quote:I prefere to think that sculpturers loved the human form. They tended to sculpture as close fitting to the torso as possible so that they were able to show musculature. Therefore musculature alone is in my opinion no proof that the culpurer intended to show a muscle cuirass.FlaviusCrispus:edp6aw83 Wrote:This is our old friend Marcus Favonius Facilis in the museum of Colchester. I've seen this up wonderful piece close and personal, and as I recall, the surface of his cuirass is very lightly textured to indicate mail. It's definitely a hamata with the lower edge "scooped" in imitation of a muscle cuirass.
Thanks!
Presumably an anatomical waistline indicates a desire to emulate a musculata.
[...]
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Titus Amatius Paulus - 03-15-2006
With the leather armor (like a leather lorica segmentata) I see a big problem agains its historical accuracy: Why make a jointed armor with a flexible material like the leather? The leather is so soft that we can move with complet pieces.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Matthew Amt - 03-15-2006
Quote:With the leather armor (like a leather lorica segmentata) I see a big problem agains its historical accuracy: Why make a jointed armor with a flexible material like the leather? The leather is so soft that we can move with complet pieces.
We've probably been over this point several times in this thread alone, but it boils down to the fact that if the leather is soft and thin enough to be flexible, it's not protective enough to be armor unless it's padded. If it's made rigid and thick enough to be effective armor, it would be bulkier and probably heavier than iron plate (of comparable protection). Too bulky to articulate well as a segmentata, at least. And the one Roman literary reference to leather (or hide) armor says that it gets soggy when wet, so metal is still better in that regard.
Obviously, this doesn't keep people from making leather loricas these days!
Vale,
Matthew
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Felix - 03-16-2006
No doubt because nowadays, people don't have to wear their leather loricas all day long in the rain.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 04-15-2006
Travis,
This is what you wrote on this thread :
Quote:
you can see the neck guard that covers almost the entire back of the neck.
The one on the Constantine statue covers most of the back of the head!
It's wild.
![[Image: diagrama.jpg]](http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/images/diagrama.jpg)
Did you know that the armor found in Philip II's tomb also has that neck-guard seen on Constantine's musculata ?
![[Image: philiparmour2.jpg]](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Comerus/philiparmour2.jpg)
![[Image: capconstdet3b.jpg]](http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/images/capconstdet3b.jpg)
Philip's is made of iron covered in leather. (btw, I shamelessly borrowed the image from Comerus. I hope he doesn't mind)
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - tlclark - 04-15-2006
I wish I had a better image but the constantine statue from the Capitoline hill has an even larger neck guard than the Vergina cuirass.
It's nearly twice as large as that one.
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Theodosius the Great - 04-15-2006
Wow, that high, eh ?
Well, I wanted to bring up the Vergina cuirass anyway. How is it classified ? It isn't a musculata, right ? There's no musculature. It can't be a linothorax either.
Is it an isolate ?
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - tlclark - 04-15-2006
It looks like a linothorax, but it is made of hinged iron.
Check out the linothorax (again) thread on the Greek Military forum.
The debate about whether it was ceremonial or functional rages there. Beware!
Turn back now while you still can!
Travis
Re: Leather Armor? (NO HOLDS BARRED!!) - Matthew Amt - 04-16-2006
As I understand it, there was a theory that the Vergina iron cuirass was covered with *linen*, though this may just be wishful thinking on the part of someone to "prove" that the linothorax was anything other than just linen. Hadn't heard about the leather covering at all. Most likely it was just nice shiny iron with gold trim.
It's definitely a linothorax translated into iron, and the only one of its kind found so far.
Valete,
Matthew