I just wanted to confirm if the pairings below are accurate, and if there are any other possible.
Hoplomachus vs Murmillo
Hoplomachus vs Thraex
Murmillo vs Thraex
Murmillo vs Retiarius (?)
Provocator vs Provocator
Retiarius vs Secutor
Retiarius vs Scissor
Scissor vs Scissor
Another thing i would like to know is when the fight was beetween more then 2 gladiators, what sort of documented fights were there? And in N vs N gladiators would it use the pairings above, or would it just be "random".
Thank you
Quote:I just wanted to confirm if the pairings below are accurate, and if there are any other possible.
Hoplomachus vs Murmillo
o.k.
Hoplomachus vs Thraex
o.k. (rare)
Murmillo vs Thraex
o.k.
Murmillo vs Retiarius
o.k. (rare and known just until the time about Augustus)
Provocator vs Provocator
o.k.
Retiarius vs Secutor
o.k.
Retiarius vs Scissor
o.k. but I think there has been fighting allways two Scissor against one Retiarius
Scissor vs Scissor
?? I don't know any source showing that
These pairings are know too
Essedarius - Essedarius
Eques - Eques
Murmillo - Murmillo (very rare)
Murmillo - Provocator (very rare)
Essedarius - Retiarius (very rare)
Sagitterius-Sagittarius
Andabata-Andabata
Dimachaerus-Hoplomachus (?)
Quote:Another thing i would like to know is when the fight was beetween more then 2 gladiators, what sort of documented fights were there? And in N vs N gladiators would it use the pairings above, or would it just be "random".
Normally there has been fighting just two gladiators against each other.
Sources which tell us from more than two gladiators which are fighting each others are very rare!
But there is one very well known fight from two Secutors against one Retiarius on something like a bridge/scaffold. AFAIK these gladiators has been also named Pontarii.
.
Thanks for the info.
I've read somewhere that the retiarius/pontarii besides his usual equipment was "armed" with stones that he threw at his oponents.
Is this right??
Arent two scissors fighting one another in this image??
http://www.philipharland.com/Museums/Hi ... efsweb.jpg
If not a scissor what is it?
Quote:Murmillo vs Retiarius o.k. (rare and known just until the time about Augustus)
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.
As far as I remember it correctly from the books I've read (Junkelmann etc.) the
retiarius appeared only in the time of Caligula. Since the the secutor is a special type of
murmillo fighting the
retiarius it makes sense that at first the
murmillo with his standard helmet was paired against the
retiarius. When they noticed that the net gets tangled easily in that angled crest they developed the
secutor helmet with the smooth features.
Quote:These pairings are know too
Murmillo - Murmillo (very rare)
Murmillo - Provocator (very rare)
Essedarius - Retiarius (very rare)
Lusitano
Can you give me some references for these pairings please, prefereable original sources but modern works will do?
Regards
Conal
You mean Aurelianus
For the pairing Murmillo-Provocator there is a picture on a flask which Junkelmann shows in his book on page 116. It dates from the 2nd/3rd century.
About the others I'm also interested in the sources, Patrik Aurelianus. :lol:
Quote:You mean Aurelianus
I do ...sorry :oops:
The now-perished stucco relief from the Umbricius Scaurus monument in Pompeii, which now exists only in early 19th century drawings, shows a possible retiarius-essedarius pairing. This depiction, unlike the other pairings depicted, is enigmatic. A pair of essedarii are shown, one of whom is in the act of executing the other. The type is clear-smooth, crestless, visored helmets, absence of any leg armor, and oval shields (on the ground). It looks like the denoument of a typical essedarius-vs.-essedarius match. But there are two retiarii present who seem to be involved and there are no secutores depicted. Some believe that the retiarii had been matched against the essedarii and the defeated man is being killed by a fellow swordsman because the victorious retiarius is too badly wounded to do the job. Others think that the victor of the match is to be matched against a retiarius. It is perplexing because all the other matches on the relief are conventional and clear. Obviously, a viewer of the time was expected to understand what was going on. In any case, there are two retiarii, two essedarii and no secutores, so this may be a depiction of an essedarius-vs.retiarius pairing. Marcus Junkelmann thinks it may date from a period before the nature of the retiarius's opponent had been steeled, and he may have been matched against several types of swordsman.
Quote:I've read somewhere that the retiarius/pontarii besides his usual equipment was "armed" with stones that he threw at his oponents.
Is this right??
Maybe. Some of the fragments possibly showing pontiarii also offers us a small "hill" of round objects to the feet of the retiarius. Maybe they were made of stone, perhaps something different. In a military context lead would make sense, but not in a gladiatorial situation.
It's fact, that the pontiarii seems to had something to throw.
The interpretation of the ampulla showing myrmillo vs. provocator isn't that clear like it seems to be.
The one called provocator don't wear a pectorale, at least theres nothing to see in his back that compares to the other one shown.
Also he wears a very large leg guard.
Only the helmet, which isN't very clear to see, seems to identify the fighter as provocator, caused by the long neckguard and the missing crest.
So why would they pair them up in certain orders? This seems pretty specific and not just fighter against fighter.
Quote:So why would they pair them up in certain orders? This seems pretty specific and not just fighter against fighter.
There "could" be any order of pairings (in theory) but the only evidence that we have is the pairings mentioned above, so we stick with what we know for sure.
If the pairing were in certain orders it was probably because certain pairings were more exciting in roman eyes.
But in different parts of the empire certain pairings were more "famous" then others. What worked in rome might not work in another place.
It is about the same thing in sports, when team X meets team Y you just know that it most certanly will be a great match.
Ah ok. Thank you for explaining. So for entertainment reasons more than anything else.
In fact we really didn't know for sure, perhaps they didn't do it like we think, perhaps the pairings were wide open.
But right know, e.g. the retiarius mentioned in word or picture is shown against secutores or perhaps in connection with the scissor.
As pontiarius against two secutores... nothing more.
And perhaps it belongs to the roman sense of a "fair" fight.
It wouldn't be of interest and wouldn't be honorfull to see a parmulari, a man with a small shield, fighting against a retiarius, which would be able to use his longer weapon against the less armor.
The fights should be spectacular, honorfull and interesting for the audience.
So the pros and contras of the paarings adding themselves mostly good.
Fast but less armored against slower and more armored, two good armored and slow guys and so on.
Sometimes, there seems to be parings dosn't fit into this. Two sagitarii against each other, that dosn't seemed to be a long fight. But it's also not clear if they really belonged to the real gladiators and what kind of fight it was in fact.