RomanArmyTalk

That's funny, because every cop I talk to HATES their body armor when it gets warm out because they heat up too much. I may have been exagerating with the 5 degrees celcius (that's hot for us canadians lol) but I wouldn't want to be purposely adding more thickness to my body's layers. Plus a musculata is only open at the arms, neck and waist. Unlike a segmentata or maille, so that is your entire front and back that isn't going to ventilate.

Most law enforcement officer's vests don't go much past mid-belly so it doesn't ride up when they are sitting in the cruiser. Having your guts open to the air so to speak goes a long way in helping cool your core temperature. The musculata goes down past the hips.

Good points Rusty, but I don't see how they compare here.

Isn't there some ancient source stating that leather armor is useless when wet? Doesn't sound like armor for the big wigs.

Hello Anthony.

It was very interesting to read your experiments. Could you explain further how you hardened your leather with water as there are many people who are under the impression that making it wet renders it useless!

Quote:Isn't there some ancient source stating that leather armor is useless when wet? Doesn't sound like armor for the big wigs.

Pliny the Elder writing about the Hippopotamus throws in the additional information that the skin can be used for helmets and shields but was useless when wet.

Anthony did you or could you try your tests after soaking the cuirass in water, simulating rain?

I am sure that like other types of armour if leather armour was used to any extent by the Romans it would not come in one standard version. Leather can be moulded into shape and many of the decorated features we see on statues could be done in this way and then applied and gilded. There is no reason to see it simply as a cheap option. Muscle cuirass armour is shown in sculpture being worn by a range of troop types and not all appear to be officers. So it depends again on whether you believe that the ancient artists are faithfully recording what they see or are working off standard Hellenistic patterns.

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Graham.

So basically we're back to square 1...again lol.

Quote:It was very interesting to read your experiments. Could you explain further how you hardened your leather with water as there are many people who are under the impression that making it wet renders it useless!.

Leather is hardened with heat, not water. There are two main ways that we think leather was hardened. Water hardening involves soaking the leather in hot (not boiling) water. The other method involves baking it in an oven. Wet leather is definitely useless as armour. But it dries out eventually.

If painted, particularly with encaustic paint, wouldn't that also help to protect from water? If statues were painted to enhance realistic lifelike appearance, it might be logical that armor designed to look like the human body might also be painted this way as well.

But who ever said logic got you anywhere in Rome?

Slave,

I used basic soak and mold method below. The leather did not fall apart when wet, it just became more flexible. Once it dried, it is much harder and held it's shape well. I would imagine painting it with some ancient equivalent of water proofing would be ideal.

Quote:The first, and the easiest, is to soak the leather in cold water (as long as you want to, suggestions range from 15 minutes to 12 hours or longer) then form it and let it dry. This may not seem all that great, but if you've seen a vambrace after it's been sweated into after a summer, you know it can harden up quite a bit. If you tool the leather while it is wet, you will make it even harder.

Soaking leather to make it harder is really more appropriate for vegetable tanned leather.

Some people have suggested soaking the leather in lye or urine, but I have no idea if these actually work any differently than using normal water.

There's multiple was to shape and harden leather so it keeps it's shape; this site has pretty much all of them:
[url:tt9xd80u]http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/hl.html[/url]

Getting back to effectiveness of a leather musculata...

Quote:Lastly, I wrote up a short essay on the possibility that Roman Officers wore chain maile under their leather cuirass when in battle

THAT is an interesting possibility that hasn't been mentioned recently (if ever) on this forum. We know from a royal English tomb and effigy that maille was combined with plate armor from head to toe. So, doubling of armor is a real possibility. But leather as a standalone piece of equipment doesn't sound as realistic to me.

BTW, I'm genuinely fascinated with the possibility of waterproofing leather armor as Graham has suggested and look forward to reading the developing debate about the idea between the leather experts and the theorizers.

~Theo

Quote:We know from a royal English tomb and effigy that maille was combined with plate armor from head to toe. So, doubling of armor is a real possibility.

No we don't. It is impossible to tell from effigies whether mail was worn underneath the plate or whether mail was just used as voiders to cover gaps. There are inventories that list mail gussets/voiders dating to the beginning of the period when plate began to supplant mail.

A great leather dressing is Boiled Linseed oil and Beeswax, mixed together. A bit of heating on the leather really makes it soak in. As far as painting it, you can use regular leather dye and top coat it.....I will dig through my files for my leather dressing recipe...

As far as my ballistic vest at work, I figure a bullet is much hotter!! Still awful hot though.

Respectfully,

Wes

Quote:

Theodosius the Great:2bdpomb5 Wrote:We know from a royal English tomb and effigy that maille was combined with plate armor from head to toe. So, doubling of armor is a real possibility.

No we don't. It is impossible to tell from effigies whether mail was worn underneath the plate or whether mail was just used as voiders to cover gaps. There are inventories that list mail gussets/voiders dating to the beginning of the period when plate began to supplant mail.

Hi Dan,

I saw a recently produced program on the History Channel hosted by that English expert who specializes in using and wearing ancient and medieval armor / weapons (forgot his name - short and bald guy. His most recent appearance was on a program about Egyptian warfare). In it he showed a rare example of an effigy that shows a narrow gap in the surcoat which revealed that he was wearing mail underneath his breastplate. I wish I knew which effigy and tomb it belonged to but I didn't make note of it at the time.

Anyway, I know the History Channel is unreliable but that was my source for the claim I made about mail and plate.


~Theo

I hope you are not talking about Mike Loades. Getting your face on a lot of TV docos doesn't make you an expert at anything except getting your face on TV docos.

Quote: hope you are not talking about Mike Loades. Getting your face on a lot of TV docos doesn't make you an expert at anything except getting your face on TV docos.

Salve Dan,

In all honesty, and I am not arguing with you, but I think you should give the History Channel a little more credit.

Mike Loades, as many hosts, may not be the ‘end-all-be-all’ of ancient history experts but the writers and researchers at the History Channel are. Whether or not you agree with their conclusions… they are expertly researched. The script that Mike Loades is reading was written by experts in the field of ancient history.

Although I’d define myself as an “ancient history buffâ€

NO LEATHER BS ANYMORE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

M.VIB.M.

Quote:NO LEATHER BS ANYMORE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Henk-Jan, you can join the discussion with arguments, or you can abstain. Comments like the above add nothing whatsoever.