RomanArmyTalk

Hi Caius here I am thinking about protraying a Legionary infantry from the time of Marcus Aurllieus 160- 180 AD time frame. My current imperssions include Trajanic period as well as Late Roman. Could someone suggest typical helms for the period. Also was the Gladius starting to disapper or could I still use it or do I need a Spatha?. Are sheild emblems the same or do they strat to change?. Any info would be useful. I have a basic ideas,but need more info thanks in advance Cheers Caius/thomas R

I think the possible helmets for this period are for example:

-Niederbieber types
-auxiliary cavalry E types
-Buch helmet
-Niedermörmter helmets
-imperial Italic infantry helmets

I think this is the last phase of the Pompeii type gladiuses, at least the scabbards starts to change to late roman spatha types. Spathas are beginning to replace pompeii gladiuses and also the the ring pommel swords are more and more common (due to the Danube area influence?)...

This is a quick answer, shooting from the "hip", correct me please if I am wrong!

If you have a copy of Feugere, on page 116 are the contents of the Lyons "tomb", where in 197 AD a soldier fell into the well with the possessions he had on him. Slightly later than Marcus Aurelius, but the closest thing to a snapshot of the metal items that this soldier was wearing at that time.
It includes
-Spatha
-Scabbard with slide and pelta chape
- Felix Utere belt (copy made by http://www.hr-replikate.de/englisch/ )
-Baldric fittings (similar to those great pics above from Faventianus)
-Brooch

The stuff he wasn't wearing would include body armour and helmet. This "camp dress" corresponds to the dress shown in the Dura paintings- especially the "Terentius" painting. Simon James site is excellent here http://www.le.ac.uk/ar/stj/dura.htm#orig

As I said, a bit later than Marcus Aurelius , but hopefully helpful.

Cheers

Caballo

These are very nice reconstructions, but I always thought that the Greek pattern shoulder doubling disappeared in the early second century? The Column of MA only shows hamata without doubling IIRC as does the earlier Trajanic Adamklissi monument.

Quote:These are very nice reconstructions, but I always thought that the Greek pattern shoulder doubling disappeared in the early second century? The Column of MA only shows hamata without doubling IIRC as does the earlier Trajanic Adamklissi monument.

You are right Peronis, but Tibisius and Luis Mari got inspired by Angus Mc Bride illustration of Ross Cowan's Osprey's Marcus Aurelius Legionary book, explaining it as an archaic form of armor... but as I told you, you are damn right! :wink:

Quote:Also was the Gladius starting to disapper or could I still use it or do I need a Spatha?

How about a ring pommel sword?

A ring-pommel gladius would be perfect!

Caballo,
When you write that the Lyon soldier 'fell into the well with the possessions he had on him', are you impliying that he was found inside a well? hock:
Do you have evidence for that or are you mixing him with the Velsen soldier? :?

Aitor

As far as I can remember, some scholars think the Lyon soldier was thrown into the well, either alive or dead (which is why some call the find the 'Lyon burial'). The date 197 AD comes from the grisly battle between Severus and Albinus, and the soldier from Lyon is often connected to this date as a 'hasty burial by retreating forces of Albinus'. This hypothesis may be right...

Just to mention it: also pila were still in use in late 2nd century, so its quite also possible to use them.
A very nice stone out of Bonn set by a soldiers which retourned from the parthian wars in the 60s shos us a soldiers using hasta and scutum, not parma...

So i think 2nd century opens much more options than ment.

But a ring pommel sword i guess is a must, i still didnt seen some in use and be very sad about it.
By the way, did you get my message Florian?

Quote:By the way, did you get my message Florian?

Oh my! Totally forgot that!
Yes, I received it Thank you! I even sent an article about ring-pommel swords to Michael Slansky (COH IV - Markus Neidhart).
Personally I still opt for a Neupotz spatha or something similar. The ring-pommel swords look great, but are probably just a few decades too early for me

Your welcome
Perhaps one of your men is "late" enough to wear, i would really love to see, espc. the Bonner sword.

Flavius- thanks for the summary on the Lyon soldier- exactly my understanding.

On the shoulder hamata doublings, a couple of questions:-

-when is the latest date for which they would be valid?
-do we know why they were dropped? Fashion? Cost? Fighting style?

Cheers

Caballo

I'm not Flavius, but i ll try to answer anyway
The humeralia disapperead in regular use till the end of the first century, it not only isnt present on the column of Marcus Aurelius, already the topaium traiana dosn't show it anymore, also it presents regular milites in hamata.

It isn't possible to say to which date exactly it came out of use and its also not really possible where the exceptions were made, of course the greek stile hold in the more artistic design like the sarkophage for a long time and had a strong influence to the art of the state.
Just a personal impression: as regular soldier they shouldnt be in use after the claudian-neronian time, for officers i would accept them till the time of nerva and trajan.

I never found a source which told us about the reasons why they were left behind.
I hope it could help.