Okay I've done a search to see if anyone has asked this seemingly basic question before but haven't found anything so I ask you, why in the world are the people of Troy not called Troyans? Where did the 'j' come from?
It occurred to me that perhaps a mistake occurred at some point and the spelling of the German word Trojan, pronounced Troyan, was adopted and given its English pronunciation instead of retaining the pronunciation and spelling it in English. What do you guys think?
Matt
Heh,
I'm still trying to figure out why the Romans and we ourselves call the Greeks "Greeks" :lol:
Where does that word come from ? Why was southern Italy called "Magna Graecia" ? The Greeks called themselves "Hellenes"
How about that one ?
Theo
Quote:Okay I've done a search to see if anyone has asked this seemingly basic question before but haven't found anything so I ask you, why in the world are the people of Troy not called Troyans? Where did the 'j' come from?
The culprit is our old friend the Latin language. English "Trojan" comes from Latin
troianus, that is, someone from
Troia, "Troy." I can't tell you the first attestation of "Trojan" in English (anyone have access to an OED?), other than that it comes in during the Middle English period.
Already in late Latin the semi-vowel
i was being pronounced /d3/ (~dj), so the answer in this case is that the sound was borrowed along with the word. For an analogy, think Latin
Traianus, English "Trajan."
Troia lost its Latin ending in English, and the i no longer functioned as a semi-vowel. So we say Troy.
Quote:I'm still trying to figure out why the Romans and we ourselves call the Greeks "Greeks"
The
Graikoi were apparently originally a Boeotian group who colonised in Italy. From their name the natives generalised to all the Hellenes, who became "Graeci" in Latin. English then took it from Latin.
good answer, laudes for you!
hock: Wow- I'm impressed Dan, thanks! And nuts too- I thought I was pretty clever seeing the German- English connection there... well that wasn't there I suppose :lol: So then it was actually from late Latin that our 'j' sound arose? That I wouldn't have guessed.
Thanks!
Quote:Where does that word come from ? Why was southern Italy called "Magna Graecia" ? The Greeks called themselves "Hellenes"
How about that one ?
I know a better one. Why are the pleoples from China, Japan, etc. calling themselves 'Asian' when the original Asia was a smallish district in northwestern Anatolia?
According to Peter Jones ("Learn Ancient Greek"), the simple answer (ducking the issues of the evolution of Greek iota to modern English J) is that they came from Troia, the area of which Ilios ("Ilium"?) was the chief city. That's why they were called Trojans, and not "Ilians" as one might expect.
V V V asked:
Quote:I know a better one. Why are the pleoples from China, Japan, etc. calling themselves 'Asian' when the original Asia was a smallish district in northwestern Anatolia?
good question, Robert ... and I can add the example of 'Africa' what was originally only a province in what is today's Tunisia, IIRC.
Greets - Uwe
Quote:The Graikoi were apparently originally a Boeotian group who colonised in Italy. From their name the natives generalised to all the Hellenes, who became "Graeci" in Latin. English then took it from Latin.
I read that the Graeci were a small Greek tribe at the north-west coast of Greece. When the Romans occupied their bridgehead at Dyrrhachium, they came into the neighbourhood of this tribe and the name became a generic term for all Greeks.
Same with the Germani, who were a small tribe west of the Rhine. First contact -> first name.
This link goes with the thesis of the Boetian origin.
Quote:Theodosius the Great:1bamd2pc Wrote:Where does that word come from ? Why was southern Italy called "Magna Graecia" ? The Greeks called themselves "Hellenes"
How about that one ?
I know a better one. Why are the pleoples from China, Japan, etc. calling themselves 'Asian' when the original Asia was a smallish district in northwestern Anatolia?
The word 'Asia' had its roots in Assyrian and meant, again out of the top of my head, something in conjuction with the sun.
This link though finds the theory doubtful.
Better I stop posting things out of my head.
wink:
You can find more answers on the origin of Greece/Hellas in the Greek language thread:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... s+hellenes
Now Troy.
I agree also with Dan Diffendale.
Now the Hittite tableta talk of Toroyia or (Torojia in some German books) with her citadel Wilusa or Filousa (Ilion) which suggest that uncle Homer did not invented the names.
Kind regards
Quote:Now the Hittite tableta talk of Toroyia or (Torojia in some German books) with her citadel Wilusa or Filousa (Ilion) which suggest that uncle Homer did not invented the names.
Alexander the Great also visited reportedly Troy after he embarked in Asia Minor with his army. This means that the location of Troy must still be known in the classical antiquity. I wonder if Schliermann in his search for the exact location was also aware of this visit.
Well the coast line has changed sinse the Bronze Age but the ILION hill and the riverbeds might have provided Schliermann with a steady reference in his quest.
Kind regards
The site was also identified since antiquity, which suggests that we should pay attention to local tradition more than we do.