RomanArmyTalk

I'm looking for any image of the Trajan Column that more or less portrays praetorians.
As example I have found this image that the author indicates as "praetorians on march", but from the picture is not possible to determine it or found any skorpion on the signa.
http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~ ... ge.cgi?124

someone can help?

From my memory, I think the fact that they're so close to the Emperor makes them Praetorians. They're identified based (at least partly) on proximity.

Yes, I remember also, but I don't have detailed pics, that one of the ad lucutio was made to the praetorians, and in that ad locutio is visible a skorpion on the signa in the background, am I right?

That's right ! I may have a decent photo of it somewhere. I'll post it if I can find it.

Another sign to look for are lion-skins worn by the standard-bearers. I think Praetorians were the only one's who wore lions

Luca, how about the Trajanic frieze on the arch of Constantine ? I think there are clearer examples of Praetorians there. Some cavalry shields have scorpions on them.

right, but I need something about praetorians and segmentata. I don't remember those praetorians with seg, or I'm not wrong.

Hi,
the praetorians had imagines attached on their signa, while in legionary units imagines and signa were separated. On the picture you can clearly see signa with imagines attached on them, which identifies the soldiers as praetorians.
Greetings
Alexandr

Uh! I didn't know that!
In this case it is clearly visible, yes!

Do you have also a quote or a book were is stated this fact about the imago?
I need this for reference.

Many thanks!!

Salve,
if you can read German:
Hans Dieter Stöver: Die Prätorianer, ISBN 3784425194

The theory (and nothing quite more) belongs to the tomb of Pompeius Asper of the COH III PR, he shows to singa at his tomb.
The top builds a corona, followed by imago, corona, tabula with unit, scorpion image, corona muralis, victoria, corona and aquila with a torques, and so on...
In scene V of trajans column are such standarts also seen.
There dos also an Osprey book exist of Dr Boris Rankov.

I believe you mean this tomb:
http://www.romanhideout.com/images/it/r ... HIIIPR.asp

right?
Very interesting.

Hi Luca,
Durry writes about it in Pauly-Wissowa Realencyklopädie der klassischen Altertumswissenschaft (Durry, M.: Praetoriae Cohortes, RE XXII 2, 1954, col. 1624):

"In den Legionen gab es drei Arten von Feldzeichen: aquilae, signa, imagines der Kaiser; bei den Prätorianern gibt es keine Adler; die coronae und die imagines sind vereinigt. Dies zeigt sich an den Feldzeichen der Traianssäule (...); auf den grossen traianischen Reliefs des Constantinsbogens; auf den dem Claudius bogen zugesprochenen Reliefs (...); auf der Basis der Antoniussäule; auf den Reliefs der Marcussäule; auf den aurelischen Reliefs des Constantinsbogens; auf dem Bogen der Argentarii mit seinen imagines, auf denen man Septimius Severus und Caracalla erkennt (...)."

("In the legions there were three kinds of standards: aquilae, signa, imagines of emperor; the praetorians didn't have the eagle; coronae and imagines were combined. This is shown on the standards on the Trajan's Column (...); on the Great Trajanic Freeze on the Arch of Constantine; on the reliefs attributed to the Arch of Claudius (...); on the base of the Column of Antoninus Pius; on the reliefs of the Column of Marcus Aurelius; on the Aurelian reliefs on the Arch of Constantine; on the Arch of Argentarii with their imagines on which one can recognize Septimius Severus and Caracalla (...).")
- I hope I translated all the monuments rightly (I don't know exact english names)


I don't know, if Durry mentions it also in his Les Cohortes prétoriennes (unfortunately I don't have that book).

Rankov also writes about it (Rankov, B.: The Praetorian Guard, Oxford, 2001, p. 24-25.):

"Less out-of-the-ordinary is the special form of standard used by the Praetorians. Literary sources (Tacitus Histories I 41; Herodian II 6. 11; VIII 5. 9) indicate that Praetorian standards had imperial portraits (imagines) attached to them, whereas the legions and auxiliaries seem for the most part to have had such imagines carried separately by special portrait-bearers (imaginiferi). Praetorian standards have therefore been identified on Trajan's Column and other reliefs from their display of such portraits along with military decorations - mainly different types of crowns (von Domaszewski). Legionary standards, by contrast, tend to display only varying numbers of discs, possibly corresponding to the number of the legionary cohort to which they belong. These identifications are guaranteed by the two standards of the first type specifically labelled Coh(ors) III Pr(aetoria) which are depicted on the late 1st century monument of Marcus Pompeius Asper preserved in the Palazzo Albani at Rome."

Greetings
Alexandr

A few years ago I went over photographs of the entire frieze of Trajan's column and copied each Roman shield blazon depicted. I noted over thirty different clipeius blazons but only nine different scutum blazons. Of these nine blazons, three seemed to be consistently associated with the three praetorian standards often seen close to Trajan himself. I do not recall whether these three blazons were also seen elsewhere. Unfortunately my illustration of all of these blazons is in a box in New Zealand, so I cannot refer to it by anything other than memory.

When I was undertaking this exercise, it seemed to me that particular blazons seemed to be indicating particular units. The nine scuta could be taken to indicate members of three Praetorian cohorts and elements of six different legions. The clipeius blazons may indicate auxiliary cohorts totalling a similar number of men to the legionary contingents.

Of course, there is no guarantee that a blazon attributed to a particular unit on the column has any relationship with its actual blazon, but if the different blazons really are intended to indicate different units, the three scutum blazons which appear to be Praetorian may be closer to accuracy than the rest, given the fact that many people (and possibly the sculpters of the column frieze) in Rome would have seen the shields carried by Praetorian guardsmen.

Crispvs

I'm still not 100% convincted about what Passerini and Durry say about eagles not used by praetorians.
I confess there are few illustration, but we can consider the Mark Antony coin ( http://www.romancoins.info/Legionary-Coins-1.html ) as half proof, in fact that praetorian unit was included in a legion or also the Marco Pompeio tombstone ( http://www.romanhideout.com/images/it/r ... HIIIPR.asp ), but also in this case it could refer to the legioIII or LegioXX.

Do you know other evidences of something that could be related to a possible praetorian eagle?
I have lost some images about other coins that possibly can help.

Quote:Do you know other evidences of something that could be related to a possible praetorian eagle?

See the upper left corner




~Theo

On one panel the soldiers wear segmentata combined with crested helmets. On close examination the latter look very much like those on the Cancelleria relief.
In the background are the 'praetorian' standards combined with an eagle standard.

[url:2llhzyv7]http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/4.73.h.jpg[/url]