03-07-2006, 11:24 AM
03-07-2006, 11:36 AM
That wide brim and those cheek pieces make me think republic rather than 3-4th century? wonder where they got that date from?
Its always nice to see a pic I ain't seen before so thanks!
Adam
Its always nice to see a pic I ain't seen before so thanks!
Adam
03-07-2006, 07:16 PM
I checked the book by Marcus Junkelmann "Das Spiel mit dem Tod" where he tries to classify the various types of helmets. A helmet which would look similar to the one on the link is called "attisch-böotisch" (sorry, don't know what that would be in English :? ) and is dated as a gladiator helmet of the late Republic - as Conal has already mentioned.
A sign for an early period is also that this helmet does not have a visor. Later gladiator helmets always had a visor.
A sign for an early period is also that this helmet does not have a visor. Later gladiator helmets always had a visor.
03-07-2006, 07:21 PM
Quote:A helmet which would look similar to the one on the link is called "attisch-böotisch" (sorry, don't know what that would be in English ) and is dated as a gladiator helmet of the late Republic - as Conal has already mentioned.Attic - Boetian....well it's definitely Boetian looking..and rather nice!
regards
Arthes
03-08-2006, 08:35 AM
from what I've seen I'd also put it in the 1st century BC ...
03-08-2006, 09:35 AM
It certainly fits in with others of that type in Junkelmann's book at late republican. He has done a nifty little time line from early greek types right up to Imperial 3rd century.
03-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Avete,
thank You, Conal, for the picture of that phantastic piece. Is that a fish on top of the fragile open-work crest referring may-be to a myrmillo? Also there seems to be some kind of serpent decoration at the brim.
On this site You find a helmet with a rather similar brim although I think of another later type lacking its visor:
[url:312ahtbh]http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/antiochexhib/html/15437.html[/url]
Greets - Uwe
thank You, Conal, for the picture of that phantastic piece. Is that a fish on top of the fragile open-work crest referring may-be to a myrmillo? Also there seems to be some kind of serpent decoration at the brim.
On this site You find a helmet with a rather similar brim although I think of another later type lacking its visor:
[url:312ahtbh]http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/antiochexhib/html/15437.html[/url]
Greets - Uwe
03-08-2006, 01:30 PM
The Ontario piece certainly resembles the one from the Higgins Armory collection. The trouble is that we have very few examples of genuine gladiator helms. The Higgins piece was purchased in the 1930s from a dealer and (according to the museum) is thought to have come from either Orvieto or Tuscania. I know of one other complete helmet in the British Museum. I suspect that there are more on display (or, more likely, in store) in the museum in Naples!
03-08-2006, 02:10 PM
Caratacus
If you dont have it the Junklemann book, it has a pictures of (I believe) all the Naples Museum examples even the ones where only bits & pieces were found. He has an index at the back.
The Higgins armoury one is a beaut !!! I suspect 1st century AD might be a bit late for this type. I would go for 1st BC.
If you dont have it the Junklemann book, it has a pictures of (I believe) all the Naples Museum examples even the ones where only bits & pieces were found. He has an index at the back.
The Higgins armoury one is a beaut !!! I suspect 1st century AD might be a bit late for this type. I would go for 1st BC.
03-09-2006, 10:59 AM
Yes, I must try and get hold of this one! I have his volume on Roman helmets from the Guttmann collection (now, sadly, broken up and sold off) and with that recommendation, I will have no hesitation about getting it.
03-09-2006, 05:28 PM
I got a good closeup look at the Toronto helmet a couple of years ago. It doesn't quite match up with any of the known gladiatorial types and its construction is different from the Pompeii examples. The brim is made up of at least six pie-shaped sections brazed together and apparently riveted to the bowl. The openwork crest terminates in a rose with a tiny face in it. The tail piece of the crest terminates in a small serpent's head. I would say Republic except for one feature - the series of very large bosses around the base of the bowl, which do look 2nd-3rd century. It may be an early cavalry helmet, or a helmet for the equites before it developed a visor. It's a puzzler, any way you look at it.
04-21-2006, 10:19 AM
If my memory is not wrong, this helmet already appeared in the old forum. My guess was (still is) that ii might be a late Republican "Gallus" helmet. In my view, it has a striking resemblance with a slightly bell-shaped, wide-brimmed model used by Celtic warriors.
04-30-2006, 11:19 AM
Avete omnes,
in the meantime I got Junkelmann's "Spiel mit dem Tod" and I found out that just the two helmets we are talking about in this topic, are two of the very few items that are not illustrated in his book (be envious, I won an Ebay auction and got it for only 11,61 Euro and it is in a very good condition, nearly new! And I totally agree with Aelia and others who call it their 'bible' in gladiatorial questions).
So the helmet from Ontario is Nr. H5 in Junkelmann's catalog and the other one ([url:vl8vepbp]http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/antiochexhib/html/15437.html[/url]) is his Nr. H3. He dates both of them into the 2nd half of 1st century BC, but with a "?", obviously because he could judge them only after pictures. Really nice, how Junkelmann's phantastic book can be completed with pictures that are shown here at this topic. BTW, does anybody have a better picture from the Ontario helmet?
Greets - Uwe
in the meantime I got Junkelmann's "Spiel mit dem Tod" and I found out that just the two helmets we are talking about in this topic, are two of the very few items that are not illustrated in his book (be envious, I won an Ebay auction and got it for only 11,61 Euro and it is in a very good condition, nearly new! And I totally agree with Aelia and others who call it their 'bible' in gladiatorial questions).
So the helmet from Ontario is Nr. H5 in Junkelmann's catalog and the other one ([url:vl8vepbp]http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/antiochexhib/html/15437.html[/url]) is his Nr. H3. He dates both of them into the 2nd half of 1st century BC, but with a "?", obviously because he could judge them only after pictures. Really nice, how Junkelmann's phantastic book can be completed with pictures that are shown here at this topic. BTW, does anybody have a better picture from the Ontario helmet?
Greets - Uwe