01-20-2006, 10:58 AM
I found a drawing in Osprey- Ancient Greeks. The Greeks were barefoot on snow engaging some Thracians. Can this be possible? Or did they used some winter equipment or something?
Ancient Greeks
Ancient Greeks
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01-20-2006, 10:58 AM
Anonymous
01-20-2006, 11:31 AM
Apparently, many of them lost their extremities, toes, noses, ears, fingertips, to frostbite, but I seriously doubt that any of this was the result of going barefoot. It (loss of toes) happened to Sir Edmund Hilary, and he was wearing mountain boots. The Greeks soon learnt to wear Thracian boots.
What I wonder about is how they covered the rest of them. A himation is far too clumsy a garment to wear on active service. A heavy cloak is also a problem, although you can belt it on. The garments we're accustomed to seeing would leave much of the legs and arms exposed and allow the wind to get in. I imagine they would have worn the heavy woollen tunic some think is the Spolas - and had it made a great deal longer than the chiton normally appears to be! I've found that greaves are good for keeping the lower leg warm, although the liners would get wet and cold if you were traipsing through snow.
Usually, we're told it was the hit-and-run tactics of the Thracian Peltastoi which defeated Athenian Hoplites, but I think the lack of specialist clothing may have contributed more to the casualty lists and to the inability of the Hoplites to pursue the enemy than some commentators seem to imply.
What I wonder about is how they covered the rest of them. A himation is far too clumsy a garment to wear on active service. A heavy cloak is also a problem, although you can belt it on. The garments we're accustomed to seeing would leave much of the legs and arms exposed and allow the wind to get in. I imagine they would have worn the heavy woollen tunic some think is the Spolas - and had it made a great deal longer than the chiton normally appears to be! I've found that greaves are good for keeping the lower leg warm, although the liners would get wet and cold if you were traipsing through snow.
Usually, we're told it was the hit-and-run tactics of the Thracian Peltastoi which defeated Athenian Hoplites, but I think the lack of specialist clothing may have contributed more to the casualty lists and to the inability of the Hoplites to pursue the enemy than some commentators seem to imply.
01-20-2006, 12:49 PM
Ah, another of the better paintings of Angus McBride!
Maybe back then the feet of people going barefoot all the time were much more hardened to the elements?
I recall something of Emperor Henry IV standing barefoot in the snow waiting for Pole Gregory VII to forgive him..
hock:
Maybe back then the feet of people going barefoot all the time were much more hardened to the elements?
I recall something of Emperor Henry IV standing barefoot in the snow waiting for Pole Gregory VII to forgive him..
hock: 01-20-2006, 01:22 PM
Olaf The Viking
The short answer is no. The illustrators of the Osprey series seem generally to have felt the Greeks for all their cleverness did not make shoes. There is rather a lot literary evidence that supports the Greeks general wore shoes…
While the Greeks likely did suffer in the winter, I doubt that were particularly ill equipped, Thrace was someplace the Athenians had been fighting in or colonizing for decades.
The short answer is no. The illustrators of the Osprey series seem generally to have felt the Greeks for all their cleverness did not make shoes. There is rather a lot literary evidence that supports the Greeks general wore shoes…
While the Greeks likely did suffer in the winter, I doubt that were particularly ill equipped, Thrace was someplace the Athenians had been fighting in or colonizing for decades.
01-20-2006, 01:22 PM
According to Plato's Symposium, the philosopher Socrates, when serving as hoplite during the siege of Potidaea, walked barefoot through the snow as well.
01-20-2006, 01:41 PM
Quote:The illustrators of the Osprey series seem generally to have felt the Greeks for all their cleverness did not make shoes.Indeed! I checked and apert from the cavalrymen, only one Theban hoplite wears boots.. but then that's all he's wearing.
hock: 01-20-2006, 01:51 PM
Socrates might not have had shoes for one or a combination of many possible reasons (lost; destoyed; stolen; forgot;...). To think greeks were always bare foot is, to me, funny.
Does that fact that greek art shows men fighting battles naked or bare foot really mean it happened, or might it be that is was stylish to describe such things in such a way in the art of that period?
Does that fact that greek art shows men fighting battles naked or bare foot really mean it happened, or might it be that is was stylish to describe such things in such a way in the art of that period?
01-20-2006, 02:12 PM
Jona Lendering
True, but the implication of Plato description of Socrates (Sym 220a-b) being barefoot in the winter is that he was unique in that respect. The speaker is explicit that the average Greek was wearing shoes and wrapping his feet and legs in fleece/felt as well.
True, but the implication of Plato description of Socrates (Sym 220a-b) being barefoot in the winter is that he was unique in that respect. The speaker is explicit that the average Greek was wearing shoes and wrapping his feet and legs in fleece/felt as well.
01-20-2006, 02:34 PM
If I may point out, the use of winter shoes by the Ten Thousands as it is pointed out by Xenophon:
"And in its track not seldom were left to their fate disabled soldiers, struck down with snow-blindness or with toes moritified by frostbite. As to the eyes, it was some alleviation against the snow to march with something black before them;for the feet, the only remedy was to keep in motion without stopping for an instant, and to loose the sandal at night. If they went to sleep with the sandals on, the thong worked into the feet, and the sandals were frozen fast to them. This was partly due to the fact that, since their old sandals had failed, they wore untanned brogues made of newly-flayed ox-hides." (Kyrou Anabasis, book IV)
Also, have a look in this page. Karbatinai shoes were the ones used by Xenophon's soldiers.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Fashion2.htm
"And in its track not seldom were left to their fate disabled soldiers, struck down with snow-blindness or with toes moritified by frostbite. As to the eyes, it was some alleviation against the snow to march with something black before them;for the feet, the only remedy was to keep in motion without stopping for an instant, and to loose the sandal at night. If they went to sleep with the sandals on, the thong worked into the feet, and the sandals were frozen fast to them. This was partly due to the fact that, since their old sandals had failed, they wore untanned brogues made of newly-flayed ox-hides." (Kyrou Anabasis, book IV)
Also, have a look in this page. Karbatinai shoes were the ones used by Xenophon's soldiers.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Fashion2.htm
01-20-2006, 02:42 PM
Quote:True, but the implication of Plato description of Socrates (Sym 220a-b) being barefoot in the winter is that he was unique in that respect. The speaker is explicit that the average Greek was wearing shoes and wrapping his feet and legs in fleece/felt as well.Yes, of course; I was merely trying to explain that being barefeet would not be unheard-of.
Anonymous
01-20-2006, 05:45 PM
I have heard that the people of Nepal actually have fewer blood vessels and nerves in their feet than other people - an adaptation to the harsh conditions of their lives. Not something you acquire in decades of warfare against mountaineers, but an interesting piece of evolution.
01-20-2006, 07:19 PM
Well my rants about the naked and barefoot trying to correct the misconseptions are arround the Greek History forum.
Eternaly "Sunny Greece" exists in the tourst guid only!
Soldiers might loose their things or have them destroyed.
I happened to ancient armies too. Sacharan berbers for example walk bare foot on hot sand. I do not know case of people walking barefoot on snow in winter unless forced too. Up to 1900 Balkan farmers worked in their fields bare foot but not in winter!
Those who could not have leather in winter they would wear thick felt shocks from goat wool. They were standart issue in tha Balkan armies until WW2.
Many a soldier's feet were saved from frostbite because of them.
Use of karbatinae with these socks is lost in the depth of time.
Goffredo´s comment on the artistic habbits of the ancients is accurate.
Kind regards
Eternaly "Sunny Greece" exists in the tourst guid only!
Soldiers might loose their things or have them destroyed.
I happened to ancient armies too. Sacharan berbers for example walk bare foot on hot sand. I do not know case of people walking barefoot on snow in winter unless forced too. Up to 1900 Balkan farmers worked in their fields bare foot but not in winter!
Those who could not have leather in winter they would wear thick felt shocks from goat wool. They were standart issue in tha Balkan armies until WW2.
Many a soldier's feet were saved from frostbite because of them.
Use of karbatinae with these socks is lost in the depth of time.
Goffredo´s comment on the artistic habbits of the ancients is accurate.
Kind regards
01-25-2006, 12:38 PM
Thank you all. I guess my Greeks have lost their shoes in battle.
http://site.neogen.ro/macheteolaf01/fil ... 07230.html
http://site.neogen.ro/macheteolaf01/fil ... 07230.html
01-25-2006, 03:10 PM
They appear to have lost their chlamys, curiass, and greaves as well...
01-25-2006, 04:44 PM
Barefootedness among philosophers was a common affectation to display contempt for ignoble fripperies like comfort. Whether Socrates would have continued this practice on military service is doubtful, it may have been a literary fiction of Plato's. Cato Uticensis went barefoot because he believed that was what his Roman ancestors did, and the ancestors were always right. The Zulu king Tchaka made his men get rid of their sandals because he believed they would be more enduring and nimble in battle with toughened soles. But then, he didn't have to contend with freezing weather. I have it on good authority, though that Hobbits go barefoot in the snow.
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