noticed on the RAT website an 'advert' on the marketplace section for hand knitted focale which got me thinking<br>
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[url=http://legvi.tripod.com/armamentarium/id54.html" target="top]focale[/url]<br>
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im curious as to what evidence there is for any form of handknitting / crocheting ? I know about sprang but have never seen any evidence of knitting or crochet<br>
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<span style="color:red;"><strong>[url=http://pub55.ezboard.com/btalkinghistory" target="top]Talking History Forum[/url]</strong></span></p><i></i>
As far as I have been able to find there is no evidence for Roman knitting or knitting before the 8th century annos Domini. There was something done with one "needle/tool" but knitting by definition is done with two "needles/tools" and is not done in most "Roman" time frames.<br>
If you want an in depth discussion of the question, there was a long discussion, with many references, on one of the costuming newsgroups last year. You may be able to find it wiith a "Google" search, or if not, I can try and find it in my notes and send you the url.<br>
If Rusty's items are done with a single "needle/tool" then they would be much more correct in construction, probably! The term knitted isn't exactly right, but his advertisement explains what he means.<br>
"Basically they are a single needle crochet style stich (sic) using soft cotton "yarn-string". "<br>
The next thing would be to wonder about the use of cotton instead of 100% wool, however..... <p>"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub27.ezboard.com/bromancivtalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/18/03 8:40 am<br></i>
Thanks for the reply - Ive had a look on google and cant find the site you refer to - when you have a moment could you have a look for me?<br>
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Ive seem reference to Egyptian one needle work but thats much more openweave than being constructed and shown on rustys site <p><br>
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The 'sock' we saw in the York museum looked like it was some sort of knitting, but it wasn't really was it?<br>
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What kind of skill was it, and can anyone give me some pointers on how to do/ make such a thing?<br>
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Thanks,<br>
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Vesty <p><img src="http://home.wanadoo.nl/p.c.peters/images/trowel.gif" width="73" height="73" align="right">
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hiya vestilia<br>
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the york stocking is sprang technique<br>
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ill look at my references and post in here<br>
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nice to see you have made it here - tis a tad quiet! <p><br>
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How were the socks found at Vindolanda knitted? <p></p><i></i>
the sock found at vindolanda was woolen cloth not any form of knitting<br>
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you can see an image of it here [url=http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk:8080/exhibition/people-2.shtml#sock" target="top]vindolanda sock[/url]<br>
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Maybe I need lessons in telling the difference! <p></p><i></i>
maybe we should have a workshop day Rich - we can get you making some cool socks <p><br>
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I think that's a great idea. I'll bet most reenactors come into the hobby with no idea how items in the Roman world were made, much less how to make them. Particularly using techniques like hand peened rivets that no one sells or knows how to do at your local hardware store! Just as I'm thinking about it, I've been learning:<br>
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-leatherworking<br>
-metalworking<br>
-woodworking<br>
-ceramics<br>
-clothing<br>
-cassein paints<br>
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not to mention how to find folks who know how to make this stuff when I can't. <p></p><i></i>
We are always looking for more research to help, and Flavia is willing to learn. Anyone gets soem detailed info on single needle "knitting/crocheting" let us know. I know that I love the focale she did for me. The cotton is more comfortable than wool, though we could do them in wool if we can find it. Really absobs sweat and breaths great. One of my favorite pieces of kit.<br>
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Just a little brag on the focale... After all, Flavia is my.. camp follower. <p></p><i></i>
Glad to have you here Rusty. If I find any books on it I'll be sure to post it. <p></p><i></i>
The "single needle" technique is nalbinding, which is common in the Scandinavian countries. It can produce a stitch similar to knitting but there are something like over 50 stitches in nalbinding, many of which cannot be replicated by knitting.<br>
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Sprang is another technique also used in the Scandinavian countries and like South America (gotta check my references). It produces a springy fabric by twisting warp threads together while weaving.<br>
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I'll have to look back in my Rutt's "History of Hand-Knitting" but I believe he says that there is no Roman word for "knitting" and that the word that is used translated to something like "put together" which could mean anything. Nalbinding is an extension of net weaving (like fishnets) so they could have used that. More likely, it was learned from the Scandinavian tribes since they would have more reason to make waterproof, woolen garments that were more durable and flexible than woven fabric pieced together. The Romans and Greeks in the Mediterranean have little use for winter-type clothes. As more people got assimilated into the Roman empire and the Romans started to set up permanent garrisons and residences in colder climates, I think they would have started to use techniques like nalbinding and sprang.<br>
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As is, the earliest knitting fragments date back to something like 400AD and are from Egypt and the Middle East, pretty much after the fall of the Roman empire in the West.<br>
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Phiala's string pages have pictures of both sprang and nalbinding as well as a list of references for both techniques.<br>
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www.stringpage.com/index.html<br>
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Deb <p></p><i></i>
This is a subject which has also appeared on the other site Marketplace.<br>
There is to my knowledge no archaeological or literary evidence for knitted socks or other garments in 1st & 2nd C AD. The socks in England, York and Vindolanda are of woven material, cut out and sewn.The first knitted sock is 4th C from Egypt - a nice little red number, very fine thread, so small needles - shaped heel and divided toe/foot also. This implies a well developed level of craft(wo?)manship which could have existed for some time earlier, but no evidence. Also, this is in Egypt, so not necessarily a "Roman" craft either.<br>
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For authenticity best to stick to cutting out woven material and sewing, as in the York/Vindolanda examples.<br>
Knitted focale may be comfortable, but are not authentic.<br>
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Claudia Crisis<br>
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Salve Claudia! glad to have you here.<br>
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I presume that while sewing needles have been found, there have been no finds of anything resembling knitting needles. <p></p><i></i>