RomanArmyTalk

These are two images of coins minted by Herod and dated year three.  Does anyone have thoughts on the type of helmet depicted and know of similar extant helmets?

(01-03-2020, 07:46 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]These are two images of coins minted by Herod and dated year three.  Does anyone have thoughts on the type of helmet depicted and know of similar extant helmets?

Not extent examples but the type is common on Hellenistic coins and could be a developed version or variation of the Boetian helmet of earlier times, though it seems likely only the depiction existed so late.

(01-03-2020, 09:03 PM)Crispianus Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-03-2020, 07:46 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]These are two images of coins minted by Herod and dated year three.  Does anyone have thoughts on the type of helmet depicted and know of similar extant helmets?

Not extent examples but the type is common on Hellenistic coins and could be a developed version or variation of the Boetian helmet of earlier times, though it seems likely only the depiction existed so late.

Might it be something like this? https://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_...ID=4265306

What is your reasoning for thinking only the depiction survived?  Lack of actual finds?

Levi

(01-03-2020, 11:25 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-03-2020, 09:03 PM)Crispianus Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-03-2020, 07:46 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]These are two images of coins minted by Herod and dated year three.  Does anyone have thoughts on the type of helmet depicted and know of similar extant helmets?

Not extent examples but the type is common on Hellenistic coins and could be a developed version or variation of the Boetian helmet of earlier times, though it seems likely only the depiction existed so late.

Might it be something like this? https://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_...ID=4265306

What is your reasoning for thinking only the depiction survived?  Lack of actual finds?

Levi

I can't think of any for the 1st cent bc/ad, I think its normally accepted that the Boetian types and their Hellenistic variations come to an end by the 2nd cent bc ish though there may be some late hangers on, your link doesn't work by the way... at least one Celtic iron helmet from the 1st cent bc has some profile similarity's so may be connected.

Wealthy people liked to show themselves in classical, heroic, stylised depictions. The coins aren't showing anything that was actually worn at the time. Many statues and grave stelae are the same.

(01-04-2020, 01:10 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: [ -> ]Wealthy people liked to show themselves in classical, heroic, stylised depictions. The coins aren't showing anything that was actually worn at the time. Many statues and grave stelae are the same.

So everyone is wearing Montefortinos then?

Levi

(01-06-2020, 02:39 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-04-2020, 01:10 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: [ -> ]Wealthy people liked to show themselves in classical, heroic, stylised depictions. The coins aren't showing anything that was actually worn at the time. Many statues and grave stelae are the same.

So everyone is wearing Montefortinos then?

Levi

They wore what is in the archaeological record, not what is in the iconographical record.

(01-06-2020, 10:22 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: [ -> ]They wore what is in the archaeological record, not what is in the iconographical record.

Might it not be possible that they wore both? After all, the archaeological record probably comprises something less than 1% of what was around at the time.

There does seem to be (or have been) at least one example of these 'Attic-Boetian' helmets, supposedly from the Gutmann collection, 3rd-2nd BC, but I can't find anything more about it (and I'm not entirely sure it's genuine either!):

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f9/d7/bd/f9d7b...f0ca5e.jpg

But since, as Ivor says above, there's a Gallic helmet from the 1st BC that appears to be derived from this type, or the similar 'Boetian-Pilos' design, we surely can't rule out that similar helmet types were in use in the east as well at this time:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/f5/24/...0e251f.jpg

(01-08-2020, 01:49 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-06-2020, 10:22 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: [ -> ]They wore what is in the archaeological record, not what is in the iconographical record.

Might it not be possible that they wore both? After all, the archaeological record probably comprises something less than 1% of what was around at the time.

There does seem to be (or have been) at least one example of these 'Attic-Boetian' helmets, supposedly from the Gutmann collection, 3rd-2nd BC, but I can't find anything more about it (and I'm not entirely sure it's genuine either!):

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f9/d7/bd/f9d7b...f0ca5e.jpg

But since, as Ivor says above, there's a Gallic helmet from the 1st BC that appears to be derived from this type, or the similar 'Boetian-Pilos' design, we surely can't rule out that similar helmet types were in use in the east as well at this time:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/f5/24/...0e251f.jpg

Those are the ones exactly, the Boetian/Hellenistic (Hamburg Museum f.Kunst u. Gewerbe, unprovenanced) type is thought to be 2nd or very early 1st cent BC, I think more on art then anything else.
And the other (Celtic/Gallic "Foret de Louviers" there are at least two of this type) dated to the 1st century BC I believe.
Ref "Antike Helme" RGZM Mainz 1988. A. Bottini, M. Egg. F. W. von Hase, H. Pflug. U. Schaaff, u.a..

[attachment=15115 Wrote:Crispianus pid='349876' dateline='1578134725']

(01-03-2020, 11:25 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-03-2020, 09:03 PM)Crispianus Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-03-2020, 07:46 PM)Adventurous Artisan Wrote: [ -> ]These are two images of coins minted by Herod and dated year three.  Does anyone have thoughts on the type of helmet depicted and know of similar extant helmets?

Not extent examples but the type is common on Hellenistic coins and could be a developed version or variation of the Boetian helmet of earlier times, though it seems likely only the depiction existed so late.

Might it be something like this? https://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_...ID=4265306

What is your reasoning for thinking only the depiction survived?  Lack of actual finds?

Levi

I can't think of any for the 1st cent bc/ad, I think its normally accepted that the Boetian types and their Hellenistic variations come to an end by the 2nd cent bc ish though there may be some late hangers on, your link doesn't work by the way... at least one Celtic iron helmet from the 1st cent bc has some profile similarity's so may be connected.

I've attached the picture from Christies since the link doesn't work.  
[attachment=15115]
This is the description:
"A HELLENISTIC BRONZE HELMET OF PILOS TYPE 
2ND-1ST CENTURY B.C. 
The crown tapering to pointed apex, pierced for crest attachment, with broad everted rim, the front moulded with contoured triangle scrolling to stylized volutes at either side, traces of dotted decoration or inscription on everted brow (highlighted later in white), restored
10 3/8 in. (26.4 cm.) high 

Provenance
Acquired in 1992, Cologne. 

PUBLISHED:
H. Born, Restaurierung antiker Bronzewaffen: Sammlung Axel Guttmann, II, Mainz, 1993, no. VII; and M. Junkelmann, Römische Helme: Sammlung Axel Guttmann, VIII, Mainz, 2000, p. 13, pl. 4, foldout I (AG 359).

I wish (not for the first time) that I spoke german.  Not sure how it was dated so I don't know how much stock to put in the 2nd-1st Cent. date.

Adventurous Artisan Wrote:I've attached the picture from Christies since the link doesn't work.

The link works for me but I don't see your picture.