RomanArmyTalk

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Is anyone keeping an eye on this new Mel Gibson film? 
 
If there is already a thread started for this topic please direct me to it and forgive my cluttering up the board with this... 
 
So far, from what I have seen in the press I do wonder: 
 
Would Pilate really have worn armor and military garb when he passed judgment on Jesus? Is that accurate or just Hollywood? 
 
Additionally, if one goes to the trouble of having the Romans speak in Latin then it would only make sense they would spend the time and effort to get the uniforms correct. 
 
Or am I wrong? 
 
Hail Caesar!

Passion was indeed bashed in this earlier thread... 
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Volo anaticulam cumminosam meam!

Narukami, 
Yep I think I started that previous thread. It was particularly dissappointing for me, for I brought probably twice as much authentic armor to Rome (for the Ostia reenactment followed by the Vittoriano museum exhibition), at the very time this was filmed, and would have been happy to help them make (finally) the first 'Roman' movie with authentic equipment. Of course, we mere mortals cannot hope to secure an audience with the important people of Hollywood. 
 
Actually, I am sure 'Mel' thought his Romans, and everything else was very authentic. After all, he had gone to Rome, and made the natural assumption if any place in the World could do Romans 'right', it would be the modern Romans. Of course, we know he was terribly wrong. Just look at the reconstructions and 'scholary' mongraphs about the Roman Army published by the Museum of Roman Civilization. They are still at the 1960's, pre Russell Robinson level. 
 
Now, there is a reasonably authentic group in Rome (XXX Ulpia), and as word of them spreads, maybe the movie companies will try to use them in the future. 
 
So though this movie has already been lauded for its authenticity, from the clips I have seen, everything with the probably exception of true Biblical dialogue is unauthentic crap. The Roman army is only the tip of the iceberg. All of the Jews are dressed like arabs (like every previous movie of this genre), when we know, like virtually everywhere else in the Roman world, Roman fashion was largely adopted. 
 
As for Pilate, it seems he was in reality a Prefect, and it is very likely he may have worn military, rather than civilian dress. We know from other accounts that he liked to intimidate the Jews, and this might be one more way. 
 
Like Gladiator (in which the producers also believed they were getting authentic stuff), Mel was probably assured that the props he paid for were historically accurate. In reality, his historical advisors probably knew less than he does about the period. 
 
Dan

Dan, 
 
Thank you for the information. Interesting point about Pilate, in light of which, I think you are correct that he may well have worn military garb to further impress upon the 'locals' the might of Rome. 
 
Indeed, even when the do get the uniforms right (as with Saving Pvt. Ryan) they seem to miss the history. 
It tends to be authentic to the time without being accurate to the historic facts. 
 
As for Gladiator, dressing the Imperial Guard like Hitler's Waffen-SS might make a political point, or be real in a theatrical way, but...the Caesars roll in their graves. 
 
I am curious if there are any films which you consider at least close or tolerable? 
 
Of course, I Claudius has it's problems but I still find it the most enjoyable. Perhaps that betrays my plebeian tastes but if so then I stand guilty as charged. 
 
Thanks again for your comments and I look forward to the day 'Hollywood' gets it right. 
 
Narukami

Narukami, 
All in all, from an 'authentic stuff' standpoint, Fall of the Roman Empire was probably the best ever (though the story leaves something to be desired). Yes, there are some anachronisms, but you can actually see good representations of late 2nd century helmets, chain mail, cataphracts, etc. This is probably the best movie ever for a period accurate Rome, as well. Yes, some matte painting, but much of those sets were actual reconstructions, compared to more modern film where the architecture is largely CGI. 
 
For their time, The Robe and its Demetrius sequel were fairly impressive, with the loricas representing steel (not leather), and I believe the first attempt ever to show Imperial Gallic helmets, early models at that with single eyebrows! 
 
there have been a lot of little 'Discovery Channel' type shows that are very nearly accurate. I have been involved with a few both in Britain and Germany, but these are so 'small' they can hardly be compared with real movies. 
 
I have hopes we will see the most authentic ancient movie very soon, though it will not be Roman. I refer to the new Alexander the Great currently being filmed. From the stills I have seen so far, it looks like they are using Peter Connolly books for their costuming manual. 
 
Dan

Yes, Fall Of The Roman Empire does look pretty good. It is interesting that few here in LA either realized, or opted not to note the fact that Gladiator was a remake of the earlier film. 
 
I have only seen a couple of press release photos from Alexander, not enough to tell what the armor and other costumes look like, however, your comments give me hope. I wish I could say the same of Troy. The idea sounded good, and the shot of the 'thousand ships' on the water is impressive, but it looks as though they have changed the story quite a bit. (Then again they have to get their money's worth out of Brad Pitt.) 
 
In dealing with Hollywood one must always remember the words of Darryl F Zanuck (The Longest Day) "There is nothing duller on the screen than being accurate but not dramatic." Me thinks he was referring to plot and story rather than costumes and sets, since he went to great lengths to get both right on his epic. 
 
Thanks again for your insights. 
 
Narukami

"Yes, Fall Of The Roman Empire does look pretty good. It is interesting that few here in LA either realized, or opted not to note the fact that Gladiator was a remake of the earlier film." 
 
Most people who watched Gladiator had probably never heard of the earlier flick, but there was quite a stir behind the scenes among the Hollywood crowd over this (and threats of lawsuits that quietly went away) and a number of similar observations among those academics who are also film-buffs (not Kathleen Coleman, that's for sure ).

Yes.....Fall of the Roman Empire IMHO was for it's genre the best flick hands down!....I must've seen this movie like seven times during my life already. I was about 15 or so when I first saw it. I'll admit, this was the movie that cemented my interst once and for all in the Romans and their history. I never get tired of watching it. I wish I'd own it on DVD. 
 
Frank, you are absolutely right. Although I love the movie Gladiator....once I absorbed the whole scenario and it's characters I was like '.....damn this is Fall Of The Roman Empire with modern effects!'.

Of course, what is really amusing about this is the rumor that a Gladiator II is in the works. (No doubt due to the box office of the first.) I'm not sure where such a film would go story wise, or even why, but Hollywood is not the most logical of places, even where money is concerned. 
 
I know that a mini-series of the Jewish Revolt has been done (with Peter Otoole if memory serves) but that did not really deal with the actual siege of Jerusalem. Now a film about that, or a mini-series about the entire revolt, might prove to be an epic if done right. It seems to me, from my modest studies, that the Romans did not so much as win this battle as the Jewish rebels lost it. A more interesting story than a sequel to Gladiator. 
 
Narukami

True, the mini-series about Masada 9apart from being needlessly romantic and inaccurate) did not bothr with the siege of Jerusalem, indeed not with any of the events before that. 
 
But should we want a mini-series of the Jewish Revolt? I mean, this was civil war and bloody carnage! It started off with the massacre of thousands of Jews in Caesarea Maritima, internal strife, pillage and killing all over the place. Jerusalem is too gruesome for TV, by all standards. Siege, contersiege etc., could be very nice, but a producer could never be trusted to do all the Jewish factions right, or include the horror (murder, crucifictions and cannibalism at the end) for the audience. 
 
True, a good portrayal good give a nice insight, but for a mini-series you'd have to invent a good narrative or a nice plot about a character who managed to live trough it all. 
Josephus, maybe? But then he did did not see the end in person. 
 
All in all, any mini-series of the Jewish Revolt would be a non-starter. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Actually, Masada begins with a big graphic effect of Jerusalem in flames, although it may not be in all the cuts. 
 
I like the idea of a Jewish Revolt movie too, but look how sensitive the Jews are about the Mel Gibson thing. The would totally freak out if the whole revolt were actually depicted. 
My idea would be a movie bio of Flavius Josephus, beginning in old age in a great Library in Rome, telling his story from the beginning, a'la Little Big Man. 
 
Actually, something that almost happened before, that deserves another attempt would be a series of films based on the First Man in Rome - Grass Crown series, done as big as LOTR. It is now possible with CGI. 
 
Dan

Narukami- the last that I heard/read was that the next Gladiator would take place after the first and without Russell Crowe's character. The original scenario with his character would have had him participate via dreams, a la Michael Biehn's deceased character of Kyle Reese in Terminator II (cut for the big screen but probably available on DVD). 
They had also discussed making the next Gladiator a prequel, but the sequel-idea won out.

Just trying to keep the conversation lively! 
 
Indeed, doing a mini-series or feature film of the Jewish Revolt would not be easy by any means, and no doubt it would upset somebody no matter what tact you might take in the telling. (Except I doubt the Romans would complain much -- they never seem to complain no matter how poorly they are depicted in the movies.) 
 
I agree, using Josephus as the story teller would probably be the best narrative device. Though not perfect it is probably the most logical. (I'm not sure that there is a 'perfect' point of view for this story.) Such a huge story would require several points of view, and trying to tell the story of the entire revolt might prove impossible. Perhaps just a sharp focus on Titus and the actual siege? (Actually, I'd be happy to see an updating or at least reprint of the old Avalon Hill game of Siege Of Jerusalem and of the Imperium Roma II game for that matter, but that is fodder for another topic heading...) 
 
I have heard no more on Gladiator, so your update is interesting and seems quite likely. I will be curious what the budget will be. I would guess less than the first. (A sequel to Starship Troopers is in the works with a much smaller budget than its predecessor.) 
 
In today's Hollywood Reporter (2/19/04) is a report about an HBO project due out in 2005 called 'Rome' that deals with the last years of Julius Caesar's reign and Rome's transition from republic to principate. To be shot at Cinectta Studios in Rome it will star Lindsay Duncan as Servilia, Caesar's mistress and mother of Brutus, and Ciaran Hinds as Julius Caesar. 
 
Perhaps this is old news for this well informed group, but just read it myself and thought I would pass it along. 
 
Thanks again for the info and thoughts. Always interesting. 
 
Narukami

I read a brief piece on the follow-up to Gladiator somewhere in which the scriptwriters (?) promised 'more palace intrigue and more praetorians', which strongly suggests that the plot will revolve around the coup by the Praetorian Guard against Pertinax and their subsequent 'auction' of the empire (sinister black-clad guardsmen holding empire to ransom? Foul debauched Romans competing to buy it? Sounds like great cinema!). Apparently the little boy from the first film's in it too, presumably trying to stay out of the clutches of said sinister guardsmen as they strut about Rome in their jackboots. Said scenario probably culminating in the arrival of 'African' Severus and his Felix Legions to trounce the bad guys and... restore the republic? Surely not! 
 
Oddly, 'The Fall of the Roman Empire' ended with a brief scene of Empire-Auctioneering too. 
 
I like the idea of Josephus: The Movie a great deal - fun to see the 'God told me to do it!' bit after Josie surrenders to Vespasian...

Indeed you are correct, 'Fall' did end with the Guard taking bids for the throne. 
 
Perhaps a new director will go for a new look, more historical and less Waffen-SS/Darth Vader. But then again, they already have all of those great black uniforms, helmets and such -- why spend money trying to be accurate. 
 
There are so many great stories to tell about Rome, but I fear we shall see very few of them ever done, or done very well. 
 
The gods look down and laugh. 
 
Narukami

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