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Anonymous

Just a question on something that's been on my mind for a while. It's common knowledge that after the fall of the western (and eventually eastern) Roman Empire, much of the bright light of Roman civilisation was dimmed (I wouldn't say it was extinguished), ushering in a period popularly referred to as the Dark Ages. To my understanding, the military technology and overall knowledge that reached a great apex in Roman times gradually fell into decline as the Dark Ages progressed. IIRC this 'de-evolution' continued until the Middle Ages, where military technology and organisation began to climb back up from the relative depths they had sunk into after the collapse of the Roman Empire.<br>
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My question is this: in exactly what period of our history did western military organisation, technology and strategic knowledge equal or even slightly surpass that which was acheived by the Romans at the peak of their imperial power? To put it in a highly fantasised example, at what point of time would a typical post-Roman western army have been on more or less equal terms with a Roman army if they faced off in the field of battle or even more importantly, in a campaign of war?<br>
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Apologies if all this sounds rather fanciful. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/uauxilia.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Auxilia</A> at: 7/8/02 12:22:44 am<br></i>
Well, acknowledging beforehand all the difficulties in a question like that, I'd have to say probably not until well into the age of gunpowder. Maybe the armies of Maurice of Nassau... no, probably not until Gustav Adolphus at the very earliest. Though this probably deserves more thought than I am putting into it.<br>
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Gregg<br>
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Auxilia asked:<br>
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<i><br>
It's common knowledge that after the fall of the western (and eventually eastern) Roman Empire, much of the bright light of Roman civilisation was dimmed (I wouldn't say it was extinguished), ushering in a period popularly referred to as the Dark Ages.<br>
</i><br>
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Like a lot of things which are 'common knowledge' this popular understanding is rather oversimplified and can be misleading. While the collapse of central authority meant that many things 'declined', recent historical work emphasises the continuity between the Late Roman and Early Medieval period - and avoids perjorative terms like 'Dark Ages' and value judgements like 'the bright light of Roman civilisation'.<br>
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<i><br>
To my understanding, the military technology and overall knowledge that reached a great apex in Roman times gradually fell into decline as the Dark Ages progressed. IIRC this 'de-evolution' continued until the Middle Ages, where military technology and organisation began to climb back up from the relative depths they had sunk into after the collapse of the Roman Empire.<br>
</i><br>
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The period 500-1500 is generally referred to as the 'Middle Ages' or the 'medieval period', with the first half (the so-called "dark Ages') being the 'early medieval period' and the second half being the 'late' or 'high medieval period.' As for 'de-evolution' - this could be said to have begun before the Middle Ages, or the 'fall' of the Roman Empire. Or a better way to look at it is to acknowledge that different types of society have different military needs and very different economic capacities to fulfill them. One thing that a large economy like the Roman Empire made possible was a large, well-equipped standing army of professionals. Not only did the riches of the Empire make this army possible, they also made it necessary. As the Empire declined economically this army became increasingly difficult to sustain and, when it disintergrated, the kingdoms which suceeded it developed new military structures to meet their new and very different military needs.<br>
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Sometimes those needs were rather similar to those of the old Empire - protection of long borders against multiple external threats with occasional pre-emptive or expansionary aggression. This was the case with the early Carolingian Frankish kingdom, and recent research indicates that the Frankish army had a highly sophisticated infrastructure, system of supply, arms production system, tactics and command - all of which allowed it to fight extensive campaigns, often on several fronts, for years on end. Bernard Bachrach's recetn book [url=http://"www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812235339/qid=1026123633/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0073841-0255021"] Early Carolingian Warfare [/url] examines the evidence for this army organisation and concludes it was every bit as sophisticated as that of the Romans and some of its campaigns dwarfed the numbers and logistics involved in, for example, Caesar's conquest of Gaul. And this was in the so-called 'Dark Ages'. Since it evolved out of a combination of Late Roman military institutions and of Merovingian Germanic tribal organisation, it wasn't a professional, standing army like that of Rome, but that's largely because it didn't need to be.<br>
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As far as military technology is concerned, a Carolingian army was equipped in a manner which was fairly similar to that of a Late Roman army, though it probably had more heavy cavalry which would have used stirrups - something unknown to the Romans. Contrary to popular belief (and Hollywood) medieval battles were not chaotic free-for-alls with wild mellees of untrained warriors or peasant levies armed with pitchforks. The warrior elite trained from childhood in both individual combat and formation fighting. Most early medieval societies set aside time for the training of men of military age and fighting in formed ranks made up a large part fo that training. And, with exceptions like the rather large armies of the Carolingian Franks, most medieval armies were relatively small and made up of the aristocratic classes, who lived to fight, and mercenary units who fought for a living. So these armies were professional without being standing armies in the Roman sense.<br>
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So if you are asking when professional standing armies rose again, the answer is not until the modern period.<br>
If the question is when did armies start using formed ranks, unit formations and drills, the answer is they never stopped.<br>
If the question is when did armies regain the scale and sophistication of the Roman military infrastructure of supply, armament and deployment, the answer is in the Eighth Century in Frankia.<br>
If the question is when did armies gain the level of technology seen in Roman armour and siege engines - again this technology was never lost, though it was less common in the smaller armies of the early medieval period. By 1000 AD, however, military technology was leaving the Romans well behind and siege warfare was an art which was being raised to a new level. And by the Fourteenth Century armour reached a level of sophisticaiton never seen before.<br>
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Sorry if that's a confusing answer, but its a tricky question.<br>
Cheers, <p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius
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<P>
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project</p><i></i>

Anonymous

I agree Thiudareiks,<br>
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The "dark ages" were actually really a decline of the city and therefore of real central governement. Basically many places became small little kingdoms subject to a main ruler. IE. Charlemagne.<br>
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However similar Medeival military practices were to lte Roman ones, there were some marked differences. Armies were in general MUCH smaller(populations had plumeted by that time) and the battles were also less bloody. The two armies bascially began a pushing match of two masses, until one side gave up or was pushed back to the point of flight. Death and carnage were not as widespread on the battle field as in ancient times. Again a loss of 10k in men would basically have wiped out a whole province.......<br>
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cheers<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Markus wrote:<br>
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<i><br>
Basically many places became small little kingdoms subject to a main ruler. IE. Charlemagne.<br>
</i><br>
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True, but I doubt you could really call the Carolingian Empire a 'small little kingdom'.<br>
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<i><br>
However similar Medeival military practices were to lte Roman ones, there were some marked differences. Armies were in general MUCH smaller(populations had plumeted by that time)<br>
</i><br>
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My point was that there were both (i) continuities and (ii) parallels between <b> Carolingian</b> warfare and that of the later Roman Empire, not that this was the case with early medieval armies overall.<br>
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<i><br>
... and the battles were also less bloody. The two armies bascially began a pushing match of two masses, until one side gave up or was pushed back to the point of flight.<br>
</i><br>
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As a very bald summary this is sort of true - but then again as a very bald summary it's also true of Roman battles. Both Roman and medieval tactics were actually a bit more sophisticated than this. Verbruggen <i> The Art of Warfare in Western Europe in the Middle Ages: From the Eighth Century to 1340</i> and Contamine <i> War in the Middle Ages</i> bot go into detail on tactics, strategy and logistics in the medieval period and overturn a lot of myths about warfare in the period.<br>
Cheers,<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius
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<P>
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project</p><i></i>

Anonymous

Thank you to all who replied to my rather ignorant question.<br>
Flavius, your wonderfully insightful response especially has made me realise that my question can be answered on many levels. I suppose I was generalising in posing my question. <p></p><i></i>
Auxilia wrote:<br>
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Flavius, your wonderfully insightful response especially has made me realise that my question can be answered on many levels. I suppose I was generalising in posing my question.<br>
</i><br>
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No problem. My periods of interest straddle both the ancient period and the medieval, so I guess I have a fairly detailed perspective on both. What you wrote wasn't exactly wrong, but popular understandings of any period can be pretty bald. And there are a LOT of misconceptions about the medieval period.<br>
Cheers,<br>
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<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius
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<P>
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project</p><i></i>

Anonymous

Flavius, if it isn't too much trouble, could you summarise for me what the primary misconceptions about the medieval period are? Your comment has piqued my interest. Thanks. <p></p><i></i>
Auxilia wrote:<br>
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<i><br>
Flavius, if it isn't too much trouble, could you summarise for me what the primary misconceptions about the medieval period are?<br>
</i><br>
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Well, it is rather off topic and it would be hard to list all of them, but here's a list of a few:<br>
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1. Medieval people believed the world was flat<br>
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2. People in the Middle Ages washed about once a year.<br>
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3. The medieval period was technologically backward.<br>
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4. Something called 'the Inquisition' instituted a massive persecution of witches in the Middle Ages.<br>
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5. The medieval Catholic Church controlled Europe until the Reformation.<br>
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6. The Church suppressed ancient learning until the dawning of 'the Renaissance'.<br>
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7. The medieval economy was dominated by 'the feudal system'.<br>
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8. There was little trade in the Middle Ages.<br>
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9. Medieval people were all short and rarely lived past their thirties.<br>
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10. Medieval table manners were disgusting.<br>
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11. People in the Middle Ages threw all their houshold and toilet waste into the streets.<br>
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12. Most medieval people dressed in rags and even those who didn't rarely washed or changed their clothes.<br>
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13. There was no such thing as medieval science.<br>
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14. Medieval Europe was largely unaware of the outside world.<br>
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All these things are wrong, laughably wrong or the absolute opposite of the facts.<br>
Cheers,<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius
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<P>
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project</p><i></i>
Tim, and don't forget:<br>
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15. Medieval People burnt bones day and night to keep the dragons away. (at least in England, I've read).<br>
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Dan. <p></p><i></i>
Welllll, it should be noted that Bachrach's theories (which come from the basic work of Karl-Ferdinand Werner) are more than a little extreme, and are not universally accepted by any means. His recent claim that Charlemagne could actually field an army of 30-35,000 heavy-armored horsemen and 100,000 foot soldiers seems (to me at least) beyond ridiculous. More level-headed historians, like Hans Delbruck, Francois Ganshof and Ferdinand Lot estimated Carolingian manpower potential at about 5,000. Verbruggen (who Tim mentions as a good source for Medieval tactics) puts the numbers at a still more realistic 3,000 horse and 10,000 foot, maximum. Nor can it be argued that Bachrach is simply ignorant about logistics, as he has written on the topic before.<br>
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Bachrach's theory that the Carolingians had a long-term or "grand strategy" of recreating the regnum Francorum is highly dubious, and to me seems reminiscent of traditional theories among Roman historians that the Empire was created through a similar generations-long grand strategy.<br>
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I'm not sure about Bachrach's idea that these vast Carolingian armies could have moved easily over the old Roman roads since they would still have been in perfect working condition. I find that theory unlikely, but I really don't know much about the Roman roads and how long they could have been expected to last without upkeep.<br>
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Also, Bachrarach seems to be a man with an agenda. He is very much out to get the "Primitivist" or "German Primitivist" historians, and I'm not sure about how open-minded he is regarding the evidence.<br>
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I also have a hard time with the assertion that the eighth century Franks had attained the "scale and sophistication of the Roman military infrastructure of supply, armament and deployment."<br>
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It should also be noted that the early Carolingian armies did not have stirrups. I don't believe stirrups were adopted by the Franks until after Charlemagne.<br>
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Gregg<br>
<p></p><i></i>

Guest

Salve,<br>
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Bachrach´s ideas are in my opinion very interesting, though in some respects he is mistaken about aspects of Roman military practices and thus draws some dubious conclusions. He also tends to overstate his point, but his basic theory that early medieval armies owed a great debt to the Romans, either by retaining, adapting or reintroducing their methods seems valid.<br>
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A distinction should be made between manpower potential of all men liable for service and actual strengths that could be brought into the field. As with the late Roman army many men would have been part of static troops for local defence and not meant to be mobilised for campaigns. These local forces are included by Bachrach in the estimated numbers of the Carolingian army. Campaigning numbers in field armies would be considerably lower.<br>
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While stirrups had been introduced to Europe before Carolingian times (the <i> Strategikon</i> mentions them as <i> skala</i>), they are absent from descriptions of cavalry manoeuvres and equipment dating from just after the reign of Charlemagne. This may indicate either that they were not used or else that they were deemed not important enough to deserve mention. The importance of stirrups has been notoriously overstressed by previous generations of medieval historians and it is now accepted that cavalry could be effective without them.<br>
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Regards,<br>
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Sander van Dorst <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=sandervandorst>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 7/22/02 4:06:16 pm<br></i>
I agree that Bachrach's idea that there was some Carolingian 'grand strategy' is fanciful and that some of his estimates of Carolingian army strength shouldn't be interpreted as the strength that was actually fielded at any time. And I didn't mean to imply that <i> Charlemagne's</i> forces definitely would have used stirrups. The point is that the idea that medieval warfare consisted of tiny rabbles of disorganised buffoons is nonsense.<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius
<BR>
<P>
Visit 'Clades Variana' - Home of the Varus Film Project</p><i></i>

Guest

Salve,<br>
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Having reread the passages in <i> Early Carolingian warfare</i> Bachrach states that the selected levy in the lands controlled by the Carolingian dynasty, even when calling up just a limited percentage of available adult males, could have reached over a hundred thousand. He considers this as the potential available manpower rather than numbers actually raised and brought into the field. He also acknowledges a range of limiting factors that would reduce actual call ups and notes that even those that were called up for duty could be ill equipped, with not all horsemen having armour. He gives very little details on field army strengths beyond one estimation of an army of some 20-25.000 raised for a siege and the statement that an army strength of 60.000 would not have exceded available manpower.<br>
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Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst <p></p><i></i>

Anonymous

I see that the discussion has merged into the Carolingian era, but I'd like to add some details to the original question.<br>
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Using A.D. 476 as the marker for the collapse of the West, some aspects of the Empire fell prior to this (i.e. Roman military tradition) and some lasted into the "Dark Ages" (i.e. The Senate). This spurs another concept. The Roman West did not fall in A.D. 476. Common belief has it that the Roman officer of German blood, Odovacer, removed the young Romulus Augustulus from the throne, exiled him, and had his father killed. This supposedly ended the Western Empire. A bit more research shows you that Augustulus was the product of a usurpation of the Roman seat of power lead by his father thus making him illegitimate. The actions taken by Odovacer were in fact spurred by his loyalty to the Eastern emperor, Zeno, and his responsibility as protector of the West. In addition, the lack of a Western emperor after Augustulus' exile was nothing really new. There had been times before where no emperor ruled from the West. During these instances, the entire Empire followed the single authority of the Eastern emperor as if no void had existed. <p></p><i></i>
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