RomanArmyTalk

Hi

In the event that a centurion was killed in the circumstance where a cohort Vexilatio was in the field:

Was his Optio automatically promoted to take over command of his century? If not, was there a set process for field promotions? I don't mean in the heat of battle where I assume that the Optio would indeed become acting centurion until at least the battle's end.

Would he become a centurion, or be an Optio Candidatus, acting centurion or something else until the Vexilatio returned to join the legion?

Would he inherit badges of rank? For example a vine stick and centurion helmet crest? I am thinking of a scenario where a cohort could be detached for an extended period and a quartermaster may or may not be available.

If he was in the 3rd century, would command of the century fall to the centurion of the 4th century and so on until the centurion opening would appear in the last century of the cohort?

I assume a new centurion would choose his Optio, as the chosen man. Is this right? What about other century roles like the Signifier or cornicern?

Lastly, somewhat related... Did the Signifier and cornicerns have understudies? Ie what happened if they fell in battle? Commands would still need to be communicated.

Probably way too many questions, but I figure they are all related.

Many thanks for your thoughts and input.

Cheers

John

Sorry, I just realised that I had posted this in the wrong section, perhaps a kindly moderator would move it to the correct section?

Doh!

Divining the auspices the guts of this here sacrificial animal say I made a big mistake!

Many thanks Evan / Magister

Quote:Hi

In the event that a centurion was killed in the circumstance where a cohort Vexilatio was in the field:

I don't see a difference, wether we talk about a legion, a cohort, a vexillatio of whatever kind or a single century. It does'nt matter, if this century is acting alone or as part of a bigger unit like a cohort, vexillatio or legion. You know, a vexillatio could be anything from 2 to 2000 men or even more. We know of vexillationes commanded by a librarius up to a senatorial legate.

Quote:Was his Optio automatically promoted to take over command of his century? If not, was there a set process for field promotions? I don't mean in the heat of battle where I assume that the Optio would indeed become acting centurion until at least the battle's end.

The optio was the deputy of the centurio. So yes, we can assume, that he was automatically in charge until a new centurio was appointed. Nevertheless, we know that in battle sometimes the signifer led the century after the centurio died. That is one reason, why some historians guess, that the optio was positioned directly behind the lines in battle and not near to the first line, like the two others. But we don't know positions for sure.

Quote:Would he become a centurion, or be an Optio Candidatus, acting centurion or something else until the Vexilatio returned to join the legion?

I guess it depends on the optios overall performance. There was the rank of an optio spei, which was an optio who was already approved to be qualified enough to become a centurio soon. We know of cornicularii and higher beneficarii, which became optio spei, most probably, because they never had any tactical experience during their career. Which was a must to become centurio, if you are not of higher social rank and start as centurio anyways. I doubt an optio became optio spei, just because his centurio died. Centurions trend to die pretty often. The highest surviving rank leads, like in every army. That's all you need.

Quote:Would he inherit badges of rank? For example a vine stick and centurion helmet crest? I am thinking of a scenario where a cohort could be detached for an extended period and a quartermaster may or may not be available.

I never heard about any special insignia of an optio in command. However, there was a title for deputies in general in latin: e.g. praefectus vice legati, which was a praefect leading a legion instead of a legatus temporarily. Perhaps such an optio was called optio vice centurione. In your case of a vexillatio, the leader is called a praepositus. If this praepositus was a centurio, the optio becomes the praepositus vexillationis after the centurio died. Because praepositus is more of a function than a rank. If this vexillatio consists of more than one century, the next highest centurio becomes praepositus.

Quote:If he was in the 3rd century, would command of the century fall to the centurion of the 4th century and so on until the centurion opening would appear in the last century of the cohort?

I am not sure, if I understand this question. If a vexillatio consists of more than 1 century, and the designated praepositus dies, the highest available centurio leads. If all centurions are dead, the highest principales leads. Even if we don't know for sure, thats a safe guess. The ranking of centurions inside a legion is a book of seven seals. There are at least 3 major concurring theories about this point. If your vexillatio is a full cohort, the leader and praepositus might be a praefect or a tribune. If not, it is a safe guess that the centurio pilus prior is the leader.

If your vexillatio is an auxilia cohort, the leader should be praefect or tribune anyways. The titles of the centurions in an auxilia cohorts are different to the legionary cohort. There is the centurio princeps, which is the praefects/tribunes deputy and 5 or 9 other centurions, most probably of equal rank.

Quote:I assume a new centurion would choose his Optio, as the chosen man. Is this right? What about other century roles like the Signifier or cornicern?

The principales (NCOs) were all appointed by the legatus legionis or the praefect/tribune of the cohort if auxilia. Perhaps just with final approval by the legatus augusti pro praetore. However, even during the empire, we know about centurions appointed by acclamation by the soldiers. No legate with a brain rejected such a strong wish. Perhaps similiar reccomendations happened with optios.

Quote:Lastly, somewhat related... Did the Signifier and cornicerns have understudies? Ie what happened if they fell in battle? Commands would still need to be communicated.

We have no clue, where the cornicens, actually were positioned in battle and what their role was. Probably not near to the centurio and the signifer near the frontline. If the cornicens were pooled behind the lines near to the commanding tribune, one more or less does not matter.

We know about deputies or pupils of the signifer and the aquilifer. Perhaps this guy was positioned near to the signifer, and took over the signum worst case. We don't know.

PS: I guess your questions were not about a late roman vexillatio. Because this is a cavalry unit, has no optios and is a fully different beast.

firstly, many thanks for your detailed reply. It is greatly appreciated.

Quote:

Frank post=350601 Wrote:[quote="John Moxey" post=350548]Hi

In the event that a centurion was killed in the circumstance where a cohort Vexilatio was in the field:

I don't see a difference, wether we talk about a legion, a cohort, a vexillatio of whatever kind or a single century. It does'nt matter, if this century is acting alone or as part of a bigger unit like a cohort, vexillatio or legion. You know, a vexillatio could be anything from 2 to 2000 men or even more. We know of vexillationes commanded by a librarius up to a senatorial legate.

My understanding was that a Vexilatio could be potentially detached for a considerable time, that attrition happens and that promotions would be approved potentially at a level higher than existed within the Vexilatio. I chose a cohort as I can imagine this could be commanded by a tribune, would have a senior centurion (first century?) etc. potentially numerous centurions could be killed during a prolonged detachment. My curiosity was what would be plausible or even factual regarding promotions to fill vacant positions, who would approve them etc.

I have a vague notion of what progression through the ranks would entail, but I start with the premise that my understanding is flawed and more than likely completely wrong.

Quote:[quote]
Was his Optio automatically promoted to take over command of his century? If not, was there a set process for field promotions? I don't mean in the heat of battle where I assume that the Optio would indeed become acting centurion until at least the battle's end.

The optio was the deputy of the centurio. So yes, we can assume, that he was automatically in charge until a new centurio was appointed. Nevertheless, we know that in battle sometimes the signifer led the century after the centurio died. That is one reason, why some historians guess, that the optio was positioned directly behind the lines in battle and not near to the first line, like the two others. But we don't know positions for sure.
[/quote]
That is good to know. In these cases, did the Signifier lead the century after battle too, or just in the heat of battle?

Quote:[quote]
Would he become a centurion, or be an Optio Candidatus, acting centurion or something else until the Vexilatio returned to join the legion?

I guess it depends on the optios overall performance. There was the rank of an optio spei, which was an optio who was already approved to be qualified enough to become a centurio soon. We know of cornicularii and higher beneficarii, which became optio spei, most probably, because they never had any tactical experience during their career. Which was a must to become centurio, if you are not of higher social rank and start as centurio anyways. I doubt an optio became optio spei, just because his centurio died. Centurions trend to die pretty often. The highest surviving rank leads, like in every army. That's all you need.
[/quote]
I am guessing that performance outweighed time served and vice versa. I always thought centurions got yo their position via experience and to do otherwise, such as social standing, would have been exceptional. I understand what you are saying regarding the highest rank leads, but it doesn't necessarily follow that in such circumstance they would increase in rank. For example another more experienced Optio from another century would more than likely be promoted over the head of a less experienced Optio, despite the fact that the more junior Optio could have temporarily lead his century when his centurion was killed. Do I have this right?

Quote:[quote]
Would he inherit badges of rank? For example a vine stick and centurion helmet crest? I am thinking of a scenario where a cohort could be detached for an extended period and a quartermaster may or may not be available.

I never heard about any special insignia of an optio in command. However, there was a title for deputies in general in latin: e.g. praefectus vice legati, which was a praefect leading a legion instead of a legatus temporarily. Perhaps such an optio was called optio vice centurione. In your case of a vexillatio, the leader is called a praepositus. If this praepositus was a centurio, the optio becomes the praepositus vexillationis after the centurio died. Because praepositus is more of a function than a rank. If this vexillatio consists of more than one century, the next highest centurio becomes praepositus.
[/quote]

So an acting centurion would have nothing to mark him as the acting centurion? I assume an acting Optio would use the hastile (as the original Optio us acting centurion someone would have to fill the optio's role.)

Quote:[Quote]
If he was in the 3rd century, would command of the century fall to the centurion of the 4th century and so on until the centurion opening would appear in the last century of the cohort?

I am not sure, if I understand this question. If a vexillatio consists of more than 1 century, and the designated praepositus dies, the highest available centurio leads. If all centurions are dead, the highest principales leads. Even if we don't know for sure, thats a safe guess. The ranking of centurions inside a legion is a book of seven seals. There are at least 3 major concurring theories about this point. If your vexillatio is a full cohort, the leader and praepositus might be a praefect or a tribune. If not, it is a safe guess that the centurio pilus prior is the leader.

If your vexillatio is an auxilia cohort, the leader should be praefect or tribune anyways. The titles of the centurions in an auxilia cohorts are different to the legionary cohort. There is the centurio princeps, which is the praefects/tribunes deputy and 5 or 9 other centurions, most probably of equal rank.
[/quote]

Ah, for some misguided reason I understood that the centurion commanding the first was more senior to the centurion commanding the second century and so to most junior commanding the sixth. Likewise the centurions in the first cohort were more senior to those in the second cohort etc. down to the most junior in the tenth. Just as the primus pilus as the first row first file was the most senior, the least senior was the centurion for the sixth century of the tenth cohort. That does seem very inflexible and had always perplexed me as being overly rigid and unwieldy.

Quote:[quote]
I assume a new centurion would choose his Optio, as the chosen man. Is this right? What about other century roles like the Signifier or cornicern?

The principales (NCOs) were all appointed by the legatus legionis or the praefect/tribune of the cohort if auxilia. Perhaps just with final approval by the legatus augusti pro praetore. However, even during the empire, we know about centurions appointed by acclamation by the soldiers. No legate with a brain rejected such a strong wish. Perhaps similiar reccomendations happened with optios.
[/quote]
Interesting I thought of them as being chosen men, chosen by the centurion as his deputy. Good to know!

Quote:[quote]
Lastly, somewhat related... Did the Signifier and cornicerns have understudies? Ie what happened if they fell in battle? Commands would still need to be communicated.

We have no clue, where the cornicens, actually were positioned in battle and what their role was. Probably not near to the centurio and the signifer near the frontline. If the cornicens were pooled behind the lines near to the commanding tribune, one more or less does not matter.

We know about deputies or pupils of the signifer and the aquilifer. Perhaps this guy was positioned near to the signifer, and took over the signum worst case. We don't know.
[/quote]
While I didn't particularly think of cornicens as front rank troops, I did think they would need to be deployed close to both the Signifier and centurion for the effective relaying of commands. Equally I can understand that longevity wouldn't have featured in the job description if the cornicens were position too near the front.

Quote:PS: I guess your questions were not about a late roman vexillatio. Because this is a cavalry unit, has no optios and is a fully different beast.

The particular time period of interest for me is early empire circa 70ad and is for the moment focused on detached troops


Thanks again for your help.

Just a minor throw in for interest...

Whilst my organisational research absolutely supports the 3 (Centurion, Optio, Signifer) 'command element' per centuria, it then suggests that there are 2 cornicens per (small) cohort; certainly from the manipular period and most probably thereafter.

A cornicen is not needed at the century-level as the troops are close enough to shout at, but is needed at the next level up to co-ordinate centuries (especially during the manipular period where lines must rotate/change).

2 is the minimum number needed to cope with losses/sickness; let alone being the exact number required to make a 6-century cohort sum to 500 men.

Thanks Mark

Quote:My curiosity was what would be plausible or even factual regarding promotions to fill vacant positions, who would approve them etc.

It is a good guess, that the local commanders (praefects/tribunes, legates) could propose a candiate for centuriate. But just the emperor himself appointed centurions finally! Centurions travelled to Rome for promotion in a special (mass) ceremony. That was an important part of the emperors military policy. If somebody else appoints a centurio, it is probably high treason!

NCOs were probably appointed by the local commander (legate, tribune, praefect). Perhaps with final approval by the governor (Legatus augusti pro praetore or proconsul/propraetor, sometimes procurator)

Quote:That is good to know. In these cases, did the Signifier lead the century after battle too, or just in the heat of battle?

Just in the heat of the battle. Even if the siginifer was higher in rank and usually later in an NCOs career, the optio was 2nd in command, the signifer 3rd.

Quote:I am guessing that performance outweighed time served and vice versa. I always thought centurions got yo their position via experience and to do otherwise, such as social standing, would have been exceptional. I understand what you are saying regarding the highest rank leads, but it doesn't necessarily follow that in such circumstance they would increase in rank. For example another more experienced Optio from another century would more than likely be promoted over the head of a less experienced Optio, despite the fact that the more junior Optio could have temporarily lead his century when his centurion was killed. Do I have this right?

You would be surprised, how many centurions were directly promoted and started their career not as miles gregarius. Estimations go up to 30%. Not counting evocati from the praetorians and ex-praefects and tribunes coming from the equestrian career. Aside from performance and social rank there is a 3rd important criterion: patronage! You like to get directly a better job, than miles gregarius, when entering the legion? If you have a recommendation letter from somebody important, that helps a lot in the roman army. In the roman society patronage was everything.

Of course a commander could choose another optio with more experience to take over command temporarily. He was the godfather in camp. But I don't know of any case. Which means nothing, because most info we have about principales is from epigraphic material, which is not that precise.

Quote:So an acting centurion would have nothing to mark him as the acting centurion? I assume an acting Optio would use the hastile (as the original Optio us acting centurion someone would have to fill the optio's role.)

A centurio has some special insignia, e.g. his helmet, a ring, a special stick and he wears the sword on the left side. But an optio commanding a century temporarily does not need any signs. The soldiers know, that he is the commander. And the other centurions, too. And after all, he is still an optio! Thats the same in modern armies. An NCO replacing a lieutenant for a while does not need special signs to do his job.

Quote:Ah, for some misguided reason I understood that the centurion commanding the first was more senior to the centurion commanding the second century and so to most junior commanding the sixth. Likewise the centurions in the first cohort were more senior to those in the second cohort etc. down to the most junior in the tenth. Just as the primus pilus as the first row first file was the most senior, the least senior was the centurion for the sixth century of the tenth cohort. That does seem very inflexible and had always perplexed me as being overly rigid and unwieldy.

You are right, if we look to a single cohort. In an auxilia cohort the centurio princeps is the highest rank. In a legionary cohort the pilus prior which is the commander of the 1st century. In a legion the centurions of the 1st cohort are highest rank and called primi ordines. But we do not exactly know, how the ranking and career of the centurions worked from the 2nd cohort to the 10th. The idea that you actually have 59 ranks in a legion is just 1 theory of many.

Quote: I did think they would need to be deployed close to both the Signifier and centurion for the effective relaying of commands.

If they get commands from the centurio than yes. But it does not make that much sense, that they get commands from the centurio, and every 10-15m another cornicen is trumpeting something different. Senior NCOs like beneficarii, commentarii, speculatores, cornicularii and others are on the payroll of a century, too. But they are not working for this centurio.

Quote:Centurions travelled to Rome for promotion in a special (mass) ceremony.

I've never heard of that before! Surely it would involve a lot of travelling back and forth... What's the source?

Quote:

Frank post=350719 Wrote:Centurions travelled to Rome for promotion in a special (mass) ceremony.

I've never heard of that before! Surely it would involve a lot of travelling back and forth... What's the source?

Good question. I have read a lot about ranking of centurions and NCOs lately. Most probably I have read it in the articles of Dobson, Breeze or Speidel or even good old Domaszewski. But I have read that more than once.

I can't say, if this ceremony really was a must for every centurio under any circumstances, because this could mean a lot of absence and travelling. But there was no promotion of a centurio without a letter from the emperor. Augustus implemented this rule, because he could not fully trust the soldiers and also not the aristocratic officers and their equestrian clients. So he implemented the centurions as his very personal clients.

Quote:But I have read that more than once.

Hmm, it sounds a little like a modern misapprehension - perhaps if there was such a ceremony, it was for centurions of the Guard, or those directly commissioned ex eques? Considering that it would take a month or so to travel to Rome from the northern frontier provinces, potentially several months if a sea crossing was involved, and all the designated centurions had to be in Rome at same time, the organisation and disruption caused would be immeasurable. Plus, of course, the barbarians would know just when to launch their next attack on the frontier garrisons... ;-)

Quote:But there was no promotion of a centurio without a letter from the emperor.

Or from the ap epistulis, as we know from Statius etc. Whether in practice the emperor himself actually oversaw every appointment, or just ratified the decisions of his own appointees (themselves often motivated by nepotism, as we see in Pliny's letters), we probably can't know.

I'd think it more likely that the imperial 'commission', except in cases of direct appointment, was intended to confirm arrangements already made on the frontiers - you've already mentioned the case of the man appointed to a vacant centurionate by the acclaim of his fellow soldiers. With the travel distances involved, there must have been some facility for provincial governors and military commanders to select their own men for vacant positions. The need to have the new centurion confirmed by imperial codicillus - however long that might take - would presumably stop governors using the powers of their position too unwisely.

There's a note in Summerly's Studies in the Legionary Centurionate that prior to the Flavian era centurions only tended to be promoted or transferred into legions in their own or a directly neighbouring province. This implies that it was the provincial governors themselves making the arrangements, rather than a central office in Rome. Only later - in the Antonine era particularly - do we get centurions like Petronius Fortunatus being moved about from one end of the empire to the other and back to fill various positions, a process clearly directed from Rome. Perhaps, in fact, the rise of the ab epistulis and the equestrian bureaucracy motivated this change?

In later centuries especially, of course, emperors often led field armies in person, and could have been much more directly involved with appointments, or at least their immediate confirmation.

Of course the ab epistulis is the man who collected all the requirements coming from the governors or others and prepared the decision. We also know, that the emperor did not attend every meeting of the consilium principis or consilium amici personally. And even if the emperor did not sign every single document personally and even if he usually followed the proposals of his commanders, it was important for him, that from the centurions point of view, it was the emperor, who appointed them.

So coming back to the OP, all a legatus legionis could tell an optio was: "I will propose you as candiate, but the emperor will decide". Perhaps such a candidate was then called optio spei until the approval from Rome came back?

I have read about that ceremony also in monographies about usurpation (e.g. Egon Flaig or Felix Hartmann). There is the theory of the "Three Acceptance Groups" (Senate, Military and Plebs Urbana). Regarding the power of the plebs urbana it was mentioned, that the legions became aware soon, if the people of Rome were disappointed with an emperor, because a lot of centurions were travelling regulary to Rome for promotion and came back with news from the city. And if the people are disappointed, the risk of an senatorial conspiracy or a revolt of the legions becomes higher. Another good reason to pamper the plebs urbana.

I fully agree, that it makes absolutely no sense, that every single candidate travels to Rome. Perhaps just a few per legion travelled every year to this ceremony?

I just can tell you, that I have read it often and if I read it again, I will check the footnote.

Quote:a lot of centurions were travelling regulary to Rome for promotion and came back with news from the city.

Which period was this? Might the centurions perhaps have been promoted into the Rome cohorts (as many were, after about the mid first century)? They would then return (albeit probably to a different legion) several years later as primus pilus, which would have given the frontier legions a link with affairs in the capital... or was the sense of the comment that the travel back and forth was speedier than that?

Quote:

Frank post=350727 Wrote:a lot of centurions were travelling regulary to Rome for promotion and came back with news from the city.

Which period was this? Might the centurions perhaps have been promoted into the Rome cohorts (as many were, after about the mid first century)? They would then return (albeit probably to a different legion) several years later as primus pilus, which would have given the frontier legions a link with affairs in the capital... or was the sense of the comment that the travel back and forth was speedier than that?

Egon Flaig "Den Kaiser herausfordern" (To challenge the emperor) covers the first century AD. Hartmann focusses on the 3rd century.

If I remember right, not so many soldiers or normal centurions were deployed from the legions to the praetorians before Septimus Severus. Primipili could become tribunes of the praetorians. And of course some praetorian evocati became centurions in the legions. Some tribunes of the praetorians became primipilus iterum and were deployed as deputy of a legatus augusti pro praetore.

But that has nothing to do with promoting centurions. Thats not what I have read about.