RomanArmyTalk

I am curious if there is ANY evidence remaining, found, suggested by sources etc.....about the types of scourges or whips used by the Romans. A type of whip keeps getting mentioned on the internet or history programs about somerhing called cat of 9 tails.....could be 6 or even 12.

Is there any tduth to this type of whip? Are there depictions, descriptions from the Roman period suggesting what it looked like.


Thanks

Having looked into it before, I have found no pictures of a Roman scourge. There is some evidence the Roman scourge consisted of a handle with three cords, to which small pieces of lead or iron were fixed. The evidence is however circumstantial, as it is derived from scripture, like the passage in Jewish law (2 Cor. 11: 24) saying the number of lashes should be 40 minus 1 (39), which would suggest 13 strikes with a 3 cord scourge.
The "cat with nine tails" would be of a much later date.

The only visual evidence I know about is from the frescoes in the Villa of the Mysteries. If you go forward a couple of pages in the link you can see the winged divinity about to scourge the bare back of a lady who has her face buried in another's lap.

Here is an image of the winged character. It looks like she is using a simple whip, or perhaps even a thin, supple branch.


Edit: And I just found another, earlier image. This is supposedly from an Etruscan tomb. It looks like they are using a short, thin branch or stick.

Given their reputation, it makes you wonder what is going on in the blurry part .... :lol: Could be an SM party ..

There are more depictions of whips, some even in a sort of gladiatorial combat. But the scourge as such is different from a whip.

I think a scourge is a whip. They are synonyms in English.

Quote:scourge / noun / ME
Origin Aphet. from Old French escurge, escorge, from escorgier
1. A whip, a lash; esp. a whip used as an instrument of punishment. ME

Oxford English Dictionary

I don't know Latin, though. Does flagrum or flagellum mean something different than a whip?

I think scourging was beating a person to death by rods. I am not sure but in the republic days when elected magistrates were allocated a certain number of lictors. The lictors besides acting as bodyguards carried bundles of tied rods with an axe which although not practical were symbolic of the power of the elected magistrate to mete out punishment with the axe or the rod either capital or corporal. However the lictors may have been copied from the Etruscans. In regards to whips maybe they were used for slaves or non citizens but even slaves had laws to protect a master's property from cruel overseers.
Regards
Michael Kerr

Quote:I think a scourge is a whip. They are synonyms in English.

Quote:scourge / noun / ME
Origin Aphet. from Old French escurge, escorge, from escorgier
1. A whip, a lash; esp. a whip used as an instrument of punishment. ME

Oxford English Dictionary

I don't know Latin, though. Does flagrum or flagellum mean something different than a whip?

flagellum directly translates to Scourge, like "Flagellum Dei" or "The Scourge of God." For example. Many authors have called various nomads Flagellum Dei, beginning with Attila and Ghengis Khan was called that as well.

Quote:I think a scourge is a whip. They are synonyms in English.

Quote:scourge / noun / ME
Origin Aphet. from Old French escurge, escorge, from escorgier
1. A whip, a lash; esp. a whip used as an instrument of punishment. ME

Oxford English Dictionary

I don't know Latin, though. Does flagrum or flagellum mean something different than a whip?

flagellum directly translates to Scourge, like "Flagellum Dei" or "The Scourge of God." For example. Many authors have called various nomads Flagellum Dei, beginning with Attila and Ghengis Khan was called that as well. Obviously there was some ditiguishment in that only the "worst" of conquerors were called that.

Somewhere I've seen a tombstone carved with a priest of Cybele, who is holding a whip. It has three strands and what appear to be knucklebones stud the strands at intervals. The cult of Cybele involved flagellation, much like the medieval penitents. I'll see if I can find it.

Scourging was with a whip. Beating with rods is not scourging, but could inflict serious harm. Neither would be much fun for the accused.

@Robert: It's true that under Jewish law, only 39 stripes were allowed (that being reportedly since the Law said 40, no more, so they stopped at 39 to make sure there were no counting errors). But no such rule limited the Romans.

Hello everyone!
Concerning the whip in the world of the gladiatorial games we find it represented in a silver denarius of T. Deidius (113-112 BC) (Crawford 294/1), where in the back we can see two gladiators during a duel where one is going to hit the other with a whip (1).
Also, the gladiator called paegniarius, as specified in the book of Fik Meijer*, was armed with a whip and a curved stick and is probably the subject of a scene in the mosaic of Nennig (Germany) (2), where in the same mosaic we can also see a scene where a bear has thrown one man to the ground and other two try to drive the animal off hitting with their whips (3).
Another representation that comes to my mind is in "the Mosaic of the Great Hunt" from Villa del Casale in Piazza Armerina (320-330) in the scene of the capture where an officer whips a slave (4).

I hope this will be helpful.

Very best!
S.M.
____________
* Fik Meijer, The Gladiators: History's Most Deadly Sport ( 2007)

I've never seen this denarius before. Is it known where Deidius issued it? Both figures carry Gallic shields. The one on the left with the "scourge" is also wearing a sword, something the paegniarii are never shown as having. The figure on the right seems to show a scabbard at the waist as well, but I can't make out what he wields in his right hand. This is a very enigmatic depiction. The presence of the "scourge" does make it seem like a ceremonial or ritual combat, but is it gladiatorial, or something else? It has always been my impression that gladiatorial combats were considered inappropriate as a subject for coinage, though they show up in every other form of art.

The guy that made these http://www.indyprops.com/pp-flagrum.htm claims they are made using research done on the Shroud of Turin and 'historical artefacts' but he doesn't include any references to what those are.

"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something." (What movie?)
Historical object reproductions can be hard to pin down with vague citations.

Sellers of objects frequently say their goods are historically accurate, with or without historical references.

Like the helmet I saw on an Internet auction site that was called "Spartan, Roman, Medieval War Helmet", for example.

The flagellum is regularly cited as having metal, bone, or other weights on its strings. Makes sense. Round? Flattened? Sharpened? Don't know.

Hello Everyone,

Thank you for the information. I thought of making one by putting pointy bone fragments in a well and then melting some lead and pouring it in. That would make the balls that would give weight to the ends for impact and the fragments that would lacerate the flesh. Some people on various site mention that pointy bone fragments would be attached as separate pieces along with the balls. However, I see this being difficult. one shot and the bone pieces, I think, would break at their tip and possibly off the leather strap. This is why I think they were imbedded into the metal ball.