RomanArmyTalk

I have two questions:

1. Is there any explicit authority for ancient armies using windsocks to establish wind direction and strength?

2. Is there any evidence for other bow-armed troops, e.g., the English archers at Agincourt, using windsocks for this purpose?

The only writer I know of who gives an even semi-detailed description of a draco is Ammianus Marcellinus, and the context is a triumphal parade in 357. So this is a late reference, where the draco becomes the emperor's personal ( and purple) standard.

That description is a long way in time from any original application, not even a cohort's rallying point. The oldest draco depiction predates Trajan's column, and has no bearing on the Roman army. It has no animal head at all, just a windsock being carried in battle, along with very detailed illustrations of the weapons. It is eastern (tentitively east of Sogdiana), from a world which only recorded sacred texts in a written language, Tokharian B. The other "mundane" stuff was not recorded, all those battles that occurred every other week.

Basically, everything discussed on this thread would seem as an "opinionated guess." :unsure:

My premise, with nothing to back it up, other than the undulating draco body is older than the Dacian wars, is conjecture based upon my experience as an archer... and the fact that the draco, at the origin of its evolution, was a wind sock used by bow-oriented cultures, not a flag or banner. :whistle:

I'm sorry maybe I missed this in the earlier thread, but if the earlier example you are referencing had no animal head (especially lacking the head of a dragon), Why are we referring to it as a "draco"? Isn't that term kind of specific to the dragon standard?

I argue this point all the time with someone who insists that Roman socks were made using Nalbinding, it might be a similar constrcution method, but Nalbinding is a Norwegian term, and it should be something more Romanised... A point Graham Sumner makes in Roman Miliray Dress.

This I think is a similar situation, where you are giving a Romanised name to something that is clearly not Roman, although bearing some of the same charicteristics.

If only those Steppe tribe could have taken the time to invent a written language to tell us what these things were.

Quote:I'm sorry maybe I missed this in the earlier thread, but if the earlier example you are referencing had no animal head (especially lacking the head of a dragon), Why are we referring to it as a "draco"? Isn't that term kind of specific to the dragon standard?

If only those Steppe tribe could have taken the time to invent a written language to tell us what these things were.

That's a good point, but we need to call it something even when the term is Roman. Also, we forget that the body of the windsock undulates, just like the dragon that vends through the streets on Chinese New Year. In a sense, even the body is a "draco." mile:

Quote:My premise, with nothing to back it up, other than the undulating draco body is older than the Dacian wars, is conjecture based upon my experience as an archer... and the fact that the draco, at the origin of its evolution, was a wind sock used by bow-oriented cultures, not a flag or banner. :whistle:

So, the answer to my first question seems to be "No". How about my second?

Hi Renatus, I don't know about Agincourt but they had dracos at the Battle Of Hastings but I think it was a standard of King Harold rather than a windsock for archers on the Bayeux Tapestry see pic below. But considering what happened to King Harold it probably helped the Norman archers.

[attachment=6847]BayeuxTapestry.jpg[/attachment]

M.Val.Brutus wrote:

Quote:I'm sorry maybe I missed this in the earlier thread, but if the earlier example you are referencing had no animal head (especially lacking the head of a dragon), Why are we referring to it as a "draco"? Isn't that term kind of specific to the dragon standard?

Speculation again, but could have been called Draco by Romans because tail resembles Draco Constellation in sky which wound like a tail and Steppe peoples maybe used for navigation if they travelled at night. The stars were a lot brighter in ancient times than they are now. I know its a stretch but you never know. Pasted caption of pic below
It's all a case of "join the dots" to me but the ancients held great store in astrology/astronomy.
[attachment=6848]draco01.jpg[/attachment]

Draco is a circumpolar constellation visible all night from northern latitudes. The constellation winds around the little dipper. Its' stars are not very bright, containing only three stars above magnitude 3.0. At one time Draco was quite a bit larger when the ancient Mesopotamians gave the dragon large wings which wound around Ursa Major. The Greek philosopher Thales lopped off the wings in the sixth century BC.

Quote:The Greek philosopher Thales lopped off the wings in the sixth century BC.

:!: So how come poor Draco didn't fall from the night sky?? :?:
:-o :? :wink:

Quote: Soma ancient authors said that the "draco" make a sound when the wind goes thru it, so it may play a similar role with trumpets, drums or battle cries.

Two:
Arrianus, Tactica 35:
'however when charging they fill with air through the wind so they are most like the beasts and even hiss when a strong wind flows through much movement.'

Ammianus Marcellinus, 16.10.7:
'... the dragons, sewn from purple covers and placed on the gilded and jewel-studded tips of spears, letting wind through an enormous opening and in that way hissing as if they had been aroused in anger and the bodies of their tails flowing in the wind.'

Quote:We dont know for sure either if Romans used other animal heads for their "draco" as just one piece was found.

Then please do tell us why this one that was found was in fact a dragon's head, which was totally the same as the name for the things, which is recorded in a lot of sources.

Quote:They probably knew at some point that others beside Dacians/Getae use such standards, but it seem that they related most close this symbol with Dacians in their depictions, both on imperial art or on coins.

DACIANS ISN'T GETAE. please stop referring to them as if these are two names for the same people. I also noticed that you are also describing items from the 'Bronze Age Thracians' as if these belong to the very same group. They do not, there are centuries and centuries between them.
Of course they knew that other tribes beside the Dacians used windsocks of sorts, such as the Scythians (Arrian wrote that).
Now tell us please where you found the evidence that the Romans, in spite of that knowledge, related this symbol to the dacians ONLY, as you claim?
Frankly, I don't see any evidence for that besides your own wishful thinking. :-(

Quote:The Sarmatian cavalry depicted in couple scenes on the Column dont use a "draco" for example, which is used exclusevly by Dacians, many times by infantry or posted on the walls of some Dacian fortress

So now you are indeed claiming that nobody but the Dacians are using a draco? What new evidence has come to light that would make us believe that anyone using a windsock on Trajan's Column is a dacian because they "exclusively" use the darco? I assume you found a letter by the artist assuring us that he was only depicting Dacians and Romans?

Quote:Now about the Draco. For me is kinda clear it can't be a windsock.
The reasons are that a windsock is useful just when you are in a static position. When you move on the back of a horse in gallop speed the pennant or flag or windsock will wave in the direction you move, regardless of wind (or it needs to be a extremely strong wind to move it in other direction).
Then, as the windsock of airfields was mentioned, I wonder why I didnt tought earlier about that myself, as I had to do with those before.
Those windsocks show the wind direction and speed (measured by the red/orange and white bands on it), but it shows that in the area were is placed so the parachutists that come to land for example (or a light plane) to know how to position himself related with the direction and speed of wind, so have a soft landing or to reach the point he wants to for a precision landing.

Yet you have just written that the Dacian infantry is using these windsocks, standing on walls. Seems tretty static to me.

Of course steppe tribes are not constantly galloping about from dawn to dusk, flying their windsocks at high speed. Most armies spend quite some time standing still before and during the battle. Plenty of time for the archers to judge the wind during that time.

And of course, no-one has ever said that the darco is ONLY a windsock. Like a flag it's more; both windsock, rallying point, semi-religious object for the unit, all of the above. It's a battle standard for crying out loud!!

Quote:I have two questions:
1. Is there any explicit authority for ancient armies using windsocks to establish wind direction and strength?
2. Is there any evidence for other bow-armed troops, e.g., the English archers at Agincourt, using windsocks for this purpose?

1. Not that I know of (but that knowledge is limited). There is no Roman source making the link that I know of, but as the windsock was used by Scythians, Persians, Indian armies, perhaps there is more about.
2. Not that I know of, but a flag would serve the same purpose I think.

Quote:I'm sorry maybe I missed this in the earlier thread, but if the earlier example you are referencing had no animal head (especially lacking the head of a dragon), Why are we referring to it as a "draco"? Isn't that term kind of specific to the dragon standard?

WE aren't
I'm referring to a draco when discussing the Roman battle standard, and I'm using 'windsock' when describing similar objects used by other peoples (consistantly, I hope).

The Roman pretty certain used only the type with a dragon's head, as far as we know. This also made it's way to the Franks and Saxons, of which two images exist, and perhaps even to the Welsh, possibly (remotely!) by way of the Roman army. But nothing is certain.

Quote: The only writer I know of who gives an even semi-detailed description of a draco is Ammianus Marcellinus, and the context is a triumphal parade in 357. So this is a late reference, where the draco becomes the emperor's personal (and purple) standard.

Arrian does too, and others have more decriptions.
http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/draco.htm (scroll down)

Quote:Basically, everything discussed on this thread would seem as an "opinionated guess." :unsure:

Alas, much is, but not all.

Quote:[..] the draco, at the origin of its evolution, was a wind sock used by bow-oriented cultures, not a flag or banner. :whistle:

I agree, but as a multi-functional object.

Sorry, I was reading the thread and it looked like it was devolving into an argument over steppe tribes, as sometimes happens here to converstations, and not just about steppe tribes. But It read like the discussion was losing it's focus.

I'm interested in the Draco, I've always heard it referred to as a cavalry standard. However, reading this, it seems like it was more proliferated than that within the Roman Army. So I wonder how standards did a Roman carry? We know of the Vexellum, the Signum, the Aquilla, and the Imagio, now it seems like there would many dragons appearing from within the Army as well... Seems like, before long, every Roamn infantryman will be a standard bearer of some type... :-o

Quote:

Renatus post=334001 Wrote:I have two questions:
1. Is there any explicit authority for ancient armies using windsocks to establish wind direction and strength?
2. Is there any evidence for other bow-armed troops, e.g., the English archers at Agincourt, using windsocks for this purpose?

1. Not that I know of (but that knowledge is limited). There is no Roman source making the link that I know of, but as the windsock was used by Scythians, Persians, Indian armies, perhaps there is more about.
2. Not that I know of, but a flag would serve the same purpose I think.

I think that we are of the same mind. There is a grave danger of confusing appearance with function and of transferring our present-day experience of the use of windsocks in aviation back to an age which can have had no such experience. Until evidence can be adduced that dracones were used as devices for assessing wind direction, we are safer regarding them as simply what we know them to have been - battle standards and pretty impressive ones at that. Indeed, I think that we would be well-advised to get away from referring to them as 'windsocks' altogether. Perhaps 'serpent-tail standards' would do, if a little cumbersome. Has anyone any other ideas?