RomanArmyTalk

I am not a re-enactor (although I would like to get involved if I had the time), and have never been to a Roman-period re-enacting event. However, from what I've seen on RAT, it seems to me that there are very few, if any, re-enactors doing officer impressions (tribunes, legates, generals and such). Are these 'higher' officers underrepresented by the re-enacting community, or is it just that I haven't seen many impressions posted on RAT, but they do exist? If they are underrepresented, why is this so? Lack of evidence for correct kit? Extra costs involved in officer's kit?

Evidence for higher ranked officer's kit is indeed limited, especially compared to the common miles. Reliefs and sculptures usually just show officers wearing a muscle cuirass, and sometimes an attic helmet, but artistic license in these is very unreliable. Since reenactors are very big on authenticity, it is hard to make a such a kit, not to mention that you do not want to have a bunch of officers and no enlisted men

I would argue that there are few if any groups big enough for a tribune to be appropriate. If anything i would say we are over represented by junior officers such as centurions and optios.

I think that there was only one man who did manage to look the part of a Roman commander and that was the late Doug' Arnold when with the 2nd Augusta (UK), this may sound like I am blowing my own trumpet for I did create his kit.
When I was with the VI Victrics North Guard myself I took part as a Roman Senator in Toga I had indeed spent 22 years in the military, however in my later years I was not exactly what many would consider young enough to look like a Miles would have done.

I think that there was only one man who did manage to look the part of a Roman commander and that was the late Doug' Arnold when with the 2nd Augusta (UK), this may sound like I am blowing my own trumpet for I did create his kit.
When I was with the VI Victrics North Guard myself I took part as a Roman Senator in Toga I had indeed spent 22 years in the military, however in my later years I was not exactly what many would consider young enough to look like a Miles would have done.

Quite interesting. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised though. I know that re-enactors value historical accuracy greatly, but I would think that at least in some part, everyone fancies themselves a Caesar to some degree. :wink:

I personally feel drawn to the armor and garb of the officers precisely because it is what some of the grandest figures in the ancient world would have worn. And, perhaps just as much, we don't really know what they would have looked like beyond the musculata, ptyrges, and attic helm. Rather mysterious in some ways.

Thank you though for the informative answers.

It is hard to have enough troops on hand to make a senior officer being present credible esp in the US. You have to provide servants and bodyguards. If there are not enough
rank and file on hand then sometimes this happens:
[attachment=1978]seniorofficer.jpg[/attachment]
(LAFE ARK event March 009)

There are, but as mentioned earlier, evidence for equipment is little. Furthermore, most people which look for an 'officer' role look for a centurio kit.

I personally don't like doing such an impression. I've 'been' a tribune once and totally disliked it. A muscle cuirras is way to stiff and you can't do much in it (this also is true for a toga). Give me my battle dress (either my hamata, squamata or segmentata) which is fully functional and I'm way more happy.

Of course there are some groups (at least in europe) doing higher ranking people, including the emperor and his bodyguard.

I concur with Jurjen, a muscle cuirass is very uncomfortable and can make tasks such as bending over very irritating. I cannot imagine having to wear one for long distances or on horseback, which causes me to speculate if it was more of a ceremonial armor. Surely one getting paid 16x+ more than a miles would opt for something else is my thinking.

The Roman Army may have been the only force in the world, which the senior officer's equipment was less comfortable and less attractive to that of a regular infantrymen.

Theodosius has done a very good job of creating an officer impression.

Here he is with California's Legio VI (are they still around???)

And if I may add, when doing an officer, you can't go half-way. This means that to do a credible job, you have to spend big on your equipment (including real gold and silver inlays, richly decorated and custome-made kit), the right quality of cloth for your clothing (not the "cheap" 30$/30£ a yard stuff, but real officer quality), and most of all, a credible attitude to look the part. In fact, in my 10+ years experience reenacting several time periods, very few people look the part of an officer. Too many shortcuts are taken that ruin the whole thing.

Imagine being in 2451 and trying to reenact a CEO of a billion-dollars corporation. You just can't drive around in a Toyota, even if it was accurately reconstructed based on original period plans and cost you upward of 60 000$/£ (I'm ignoring inflation, of course) for that single piece of equipment. You have to have the right luxury car (BMW, Mercedes, whatever) to look the part. Otherwise, you may look good for the uneducated crowd, but you are missing it completely as far as proper reenacting is concerned.

And as an officer wearing a muscled cuirass, you don't bend over to pickup something, you get your slave to do it for you. Now, here's a challenge: who wants to reenact a proper body slave?

Quote:And if I may add, when doing an officer, you can't go half-way. This means that to do a credible job, you have to spend big on your equipment (including real gold and silver inlays, richly decorated and custome-made kit)

Depends on the period, depends on the context. A newly made Centurio may not yet be as rich as all that. Also, if you are portraying the looks of a campaigning officer, things may be different. Spend a few years foot slogging in snow and rain and your gorgeous tunic may lose it's lustre

Of course pretty much all the groups do parade-ground troops, so such an officer might look a bit out of place.

Quote:And as an officer wearing a muscled cuirass, you don't bend over to pickup something, you get your slave to do it for you. Now, here's a challenge: who wants to reenact a proper body slave?

Oh, I'm sure there are people who'd love to. You just have to convince them to ditch the latex :>

Quote:Depends on the period, depends on the context. A newly made Centurio may not yet be as rich as all that.

I know, but the original poster talked about tribunes, generals and the like, not centurions. And the way the question was asked, he seemed to refer to the parade ground appearance.

Quote:Oh, I'm sure there are people who'd love to. You just have to convince them to ditch the latex :>

And thanks for that, now I have a lovely picture in my mind of a general with a leash and a weird interpretation of a "body" slave in period-correct naturally-dyed vegetable-tanned leather... :roll:

Quote:

Quintus post=298924 Wrote:And if I may add, when doing an officer, you can't go half-way. This means that to do a credible job, you have to spend big on your equipment (including real gold and silver inlays, richly decorated and custome-made kit)

Depends on the period, depends on the context. A newly made Centurio may not yet be as rich as all that.

But didn't we talk about higher ranking officers here. A centurio is imo still a low ranking officer. The upper staff of the army had a background with money, so they could afford proper clothing from the start. (and imagine that ordinary soldiers already could own stuff some of us consider 'exclusive parade' equipment.) Really making a high class person is expensive. Not only costume wise. Imagine a rich boy drinking out of a normal cup? He would use silverware, or at least glass. This is also something most of the time forgotten in re-enactment.

As for the slaves. I've been portraying one on several occasions, and always had much fun doing so. It's one of the jobs you can really put much 'theatrics' in. But, when you do it, do it good and don't think of yourself as being a 'picture'.