RomanArmyTalk

I was recently asked to make a couple of tunics for some RAT members based around Germanic styles of tunic worn by the Auxillia Equites from Central and Western Europe (including the Iberian Peninnsula).

I had a lot of trouble finding some good provenanced examples of woven edging which would be authentic enough to reflect the weave types of the late iron age (1st century bc) that could transition easily into the 1st century ad. I found some information by some of the researcher of the hochdorf tablet weaves (Raeder-Knudsen 2004, 2005, 2010) and drew upon some of the accounts of other late iron age finds from Denmark and Austria about the idea that a 3/1 twill with three colours used as a majority standard could be transferred into the clothing used by middle/middle high ranking early Equites. It is thought from the surviving examples of these tunics (such as the Danish example made from 4 pieces, 1 for the arms, two for front and back and two for the sides), that they were cuff finished with 3/1 twill bands. I have attached a picture of the resulting pattern from one of these 3/1 twill descriptions.


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That looks great! I have been wondering about a tunic for an early cavalry impression!

I'm impressed. That's rigor and research!!

This is going on your tunic too Cesar

I can make one for you Byron if you like... I will have enough of this band for it to be used on one if you want it..

Hi Claire!
Thank you for linking me here in this theme - i didn't know it before
Good work - good research!!
Didn't know this itmes, but i heard on the Celtic event in Stoeffling, Bavaria in Mai this year a hipothese of one pretty good textile handworker (woman) Sonja, she thought the same meaning that this kind of a twill survive the time-continuity during the iron age time because in AD time much of the tablet weaving patterns based on this twill-techniques.

I opened in summer theme in Flinkhand forum about the bands i time 1. cent. BC and i see for the first time the reproduction od the thorsberg twill band on the thorsberg tunic sleeves. The Marled in Germany (it was in the Marled's book when i was to visit her) was transtalting me the text to this band - yes, it was the twill tablet woven band.

But the Sylvia Crumbach from Germany, another famous good textile reconstructionist, have some late La tenne-Style dress recos. She means (and some other woman from Germany, wearing her late Lt impressions, too) that in this time the band should be monochrome in this type of the twill. If i am correct: the band on the thorsberg tunic is monochrome, too (but for the fact i should to see in my pdf book of the Shlabow). Our tablet-weaving woman in our group Boii Pannonia, the Ginger made me two belts of this type (twill dubleface) for my 1. cent. BC impression - the fotos she linked in her facebook profile and i will get the bands in Dezember, when i will drive to Vienna. But i still don't have at the moment the bands for my tunics: i must to order them by the Ginger and to send her my woll from Slovenia.

I read in the german forum Board Flavii the themes about the ornamented bands of this time: some belives, that the bands go, some of them belives they don't go. But no one in the forum Board Flavii has an idea: it goes with the twill So with your work you have verry good references!

I saw by some Roman-reenactors really bad dress-impressions: cotton-tunics with industrial-polyester bands on the sleves and on the tunic, too, (i will not to write where are they from) - if they will read the RAT forum and to see your good works will they use better tunic, i am sure of that!!

Joze

i saw some of those excellent pictures from your photo album Joze, they are absolutely excelling in the study of late La Tene period dress, decoration, furniture etc - the glass is especially exquisite, the Phoenician head beads are particularly skillful.

If you don't mind, i'd like to save some of the pictures on my computer to use as references in my work. They compliment some of the increasing bank of electronic documents I have for the reconstructions.

I think we can also think about monochrome in a couple of ways. The impression I am trying to convey with this woven band type is more related to the weave types that may have endured beyond La Tene and into a style worn by a central European officer within the Auxilia, possibly stationed near Denmark in modern day Northern Germany. You are right that the majority of bands are monochrome, or two colours, I think with this band, the two colours are essentially madder and undyed. When pigment residue analysis is performed on the existing bands from known archaeological evidence, we are able to pick up the signatures of particular dyes in the chemical makeup. Madder produces a very wide range of different shades, but generally, unless the textile is extremely well preserved, then it is difficult to suggest if the shades were different beyond the presense of Alizarin for example (if the sample is heavily stained).

I'd love to see some more of those beautiful bands from the groups you work with in Slovenia and Germany - I have seen some of Sylvias other work and it is indeed, outstanding... I aim for that standard in my own work, but I don't want to price customers out of the market. I like to think that a reasonably high quality of kit can be achieved at a decent price. I understand some of these European craftspeople might only make 2-3 items a year and of course, the price will reflect their skill.

Next I think I will be learning to weave the hand loom!

Hi Claire!
Thank you for your positive meaning about some of my references, sounds good I am member of LH group in Austria - here in Slovenia i had yesterday my first presentation ever (fotos have in my facebook profile).
I wrote to the Sylvia about your items here - i will see, what she will answer.
You are right: the textile items wich are 100% recos are verry expencive and if i can put here the zitat of Sylvia's working proces for her Thorsberg cloaks: she need only for tablet-weaving bands ab. 260 hours.
The reallity about the madder-dyed textiles is in the way, that madder was relatively famous material for dyeing in prehistoric&roman time. In fact: red colour was one of the most common-sense colours but if we do researching about the roman military-tunics and their colors: do we know many evidented items in your time 1. - 2. cent. AD? I think we don't know much colored evidences of them. So: the red goes (but sure, not only the red ones).
About the linked items: i think if you mean concrete one of them, i should to speake than with the autors for the permission but i think it will not to be a problem and if you need than a foto/s - i have them really a lot.

Bye,
Joze

Edit.: look at here for simmilary theme in board flavii: Brettchenweben bei den Römern, if you understand German (i do it better than English but i am in that forum not a member): http://board.flavii.de/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=116

I posted, that my bands are monochrome - but i do have two-colored, too - i will get them in Dezember in Vienna, but the belts made of tablet weaving way are finished since September, made by Andrea - Ginger, Boii Pannonia, fotos are here on the link of her gallery in facebook: http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?se...023&type=3
(dubble face twill: green and blue)
For this blets use the evidence of two colored bands from Vaalermoor, link here (form link of the Board Flavii, above, Schlabow pdf from Marled):
http://www.swalin.de/blog/?page_id=52

Joze
Edit.: ornaments on the tunicas, thread here: http://board.flavii.de/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2270

I haven´t been here for ages ......

Joze asked me to take a look at the picture - aspecilly of the tablet woven band.

Is it possible to let me know the titels of (Raeder-Knudsen 2004, 2005, 2010) publications?

I know the design als "kivrim-technik" - is this right?

In my opinion there are no fix-dated finds on tablet-weaving for the 1. century ad. On the other hand I don´t make investigations on this since 2009.

I´don´t belive in any direkt links between the "Hallstatt"-horizont and the finds for Snatemo (for example).

Still sorry for my ability on the english language
Sylvia

Hi, here on p. 288/289 is evidence for tablet woven technique in Britain - but no textile item, here are some working tools for the textile production, like trianguale tablet found in Somerset: http://books.google.si/books?id=8qI9AAAA...&q&f=false

Joze

Hi, here on p. 288/289 is evidence for tablet woven technique in Britain - but no textile item, here are some working tools for the textile production, like trianguale tablet found in Somerset: http://books.google.si/books?id=8qI9AAAA...&q&f=false
(nr. 24)
Joze

Hi Claire!
Would you explaine please this part of your text - with concrete zitation of your Literature?
Zitat of your text:
"I had a lot of trouble finding some good provenanced examples of woven edging which would (1) be authentic enough to reflect the weave types of the late iron age (1st century bc)(2) that could transition easily into the 1st century ad. I found some information by some of the researcher of the hochdorf tablet weaves (Raeder-Knudsen 2004, 2005, 2010)(3) and drew upon some of the accounts of other late iron age finds from Denmark and Austria (4) "

1.: why would be: is the band your interpretation, or is based on any historical evidented item of tablet woven bands on the tunic of the 1. cent. AD?
2.: late iron age tablet woven bands: where are they evidented? Place, item, literature, foto of it?
3.: about the point 3 we asked you, but you still didn't answered, if this literature&autors says something more about the late iron age tablet woven bands in the continental Europe or in your casse: in Britain area.
4.: late iron age finds from Austria - you mean tablet woven bands?

I puted here enough information about, that tablet woven bands are not evidented by the Romans in time 1. cent. AD/1. cent. BC in use on the tunic. We speak about the tunic, wich were commonly used by the Romans ( i mean not barbarian tunic, if who of the mens in roman army was the barbarian and wore barbarian tunic).

Would you please explaine my points here, or shuod i order this books and to see alone - but i will put here than the right text-parts from them anyway, because i am really interested, if some new finds are evedented in this matter (tablet woven bands in early imperial time by the Romans).

Joze
PS: i linked this thread to some others forums, too because the theme is good - there are a lot of roman reenactors interested about this new fact

I have not been online for a few days, this is an interesting discussion...

As I mentioned, I have not come accross any tablet bands that can be firmly situated within the 1st century AD. What we do have is much early from the traditional literature of the known Hallstatt and Hochdorf examples. Some new work has also been published recently on the 3rd and 4th century finds from the Thorsberg finds amongst others. I am waiting for a copy of this book to arrive but have seen some of the new interpretations of, amongst other items, the Thorsberg tunic which are discussed in the publication. New interpretation of the supposed tablet woven cuffs apparently are detailed in this new book.

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/I...Result/Yes

Knudsens contribution apparently suggests some very interesting comparisons between the tablet weaves and their relationship to earlier techniques (which suggest a continuation of the 3/1 twill technique for a considerable number of the examples.)

I did say there is an element of interpretive work that has to go into these reconstructions. The recreation of the 3/1 twill (using the various numbers of tablets) technique was desired in this case as its longevity as a tried and tested method for decorating bands is reflected in the samples that span the Iron age to 3rd century. Even Raeder-Knudsen, probably one of the foremost authorities on the tablet weaving techniques of northern Europe has accepted that the patterns have had to include an element of interpretation. She had to undertake this with her work for the Leksand Viking cloak. Tablet weaving is difficult as no two examples are exactly the same in design. My concern was with the diagonal triangulated patterns that are achieved with this technique - similar to the Hallstatt assemblage and possibly with the new interpretation of the Thorsberg war textiles. With the reference to Snatermo, I wouldn't try and use that as a comparison as it is much too late in date to relate to anything 1st century.

The publications of 2004, 2005 and 2011 (sorry, it was 2011, not 10 - this last publ. that I was discussing above) relate to the discussion of the single and double faced 3/1 twills a a technique and their popularity rather than discussing particular designs. Many designs, including the one reproduced for this tunic are a possibility using the techniques discussed in these publications.

Written Patterns in Early Tablet Weaving. Inriceless Invention of Humaniy – Textiles. Acta Archaeologica Lodziensia Nr. 50/1. NESAT VIII. Lodz 2004, 121-128. (concerns writing but a comparative note is made with the development of the technqueto achieve wrting within bands)

A Danish Early Germanic Iron Age Grave with Tablet Woven Cuffs. In: North European Symposium for Archaeological Textiles 9. Braunwald 2005.

2011, the above link... I can't wait until this book arrives and I can then answer more questions about possible interpretations for decorative bands on early textiles...

Quote:Hi, here on p. 288/289 is evidence for tablet woven technique in Britain - but no textile item, here are some working tools for the textile production, like trianguale tablet found in Somerset: books.google.si/books?id=8qI9AAAAIAAJ&am...ge&q&f=false

I would read Cunliffe with caution... the general info is there relating to craft and industry, but i'd take his views of cultural diffusion with a pinch of salt..

Hi, yes the diskussion is interesting becasue of your use the tablet woven bands on the tunic of the 1. cent. AD in Britain. I would like to get info about the evidence of that stripes in this time frame on the roman tunic. Since now in all books of the roman dress there aren't evidence in this matter.
I speak about the time frame of your tunic .... 1. cent. AD in Roman area by the roman tunic: because the roman tunic had a different style of ornaments, decorations; they were diffrent from the other barbaric tunic. They had individual style of decorations - but also: not so early, not in the 1. cent. AD.
All what i found is this link of the Gallic dress - focus on the decorations: deco-ornaments on the tunic and the belt: shows "maybe" a tablet woven stripes. "maybe" the diagonales in your matter, in your way. I think i posted you on PM (or i meintoined it here, don't remember) that our Ginger of Boii Pannonia made me a belt in this matter, with diagonals in twill technique, too. Fotos are in facebook: because, "maybe" the diagonals are only the structure of the twill-woven belt; maybe it could be your variante of the diagonale-patterns. Anyway, this link i haven't seen before in forum's diskussions and it shows the gallic pants, the checkered patterns of the textile and the tunic's decorations with stripes, too:

http://jfbradu.free.fr/celtes/tresor-neu...ateur.php3 (and other figures here)
I found another fresco of the roman tunic of the 1. cent. AD: in madder-red colour with the same ornaments under, i mean the strip with ornaments. The both tunic, like this here on this link, are classical gallo roman tunic i mean, not roman tunic and my opinion is, they aren't good for roman military tunic because of their big shape.

Here off topic, i found how the French reenactors works the roman braccae, trousers, feminalia, breie gauloise here (but off topic here!):
http://www.leg8.org/viewtopic.php?t=1790
For the feminalia i found another evidence, too and they are decorated with stripes - "classical gallic 3/4 trousers" but of the time frame gallo roman time.
I was researching last days a lot of the theme roman dress in early imperial time on french language and i don't understand french (was difficult!).

Maybe it helps you, too.

Joze

The pictures are interesting - the Gallo-Roman 'tunic' on the bronze statue is not a tunic - it is an overcoat that would have been used as a travelling garment - look up the 'Apinosus at Nievre' (Wild 1989) in the details of clothing in the North West provinces publication by JP Wild. These are the oversized Gallic coats that appear with the 'batwing' construction and 3/4 length sleeves. I have made a couple of these garments as recontructions. They are usually seen on frescoes and grave stelae in conjunction with big fringed scarves.

http://www.lessing-photo.com/dispimg.asp...cr=41&cl=1

In terms of what I think you mean about the cut of tunics, you are right that the large square tunics worn are indicative of a romanised individual. The tunic I had made for this tablet weave conforms to a fitted design and it was made for an individual that was looking to put together a 1st century cavalry impression, which was made of auxiliaries from the outlying provinces, hence the use of a non roman design.

If you look up the Lancaster tombstone from around 100AD, you can see subtle suggestions of the long sleeved tunic possibly with upturned cuffs (similar to that of the Thorsberg tunic)