RomanArmyTalk

Hello,

I think heading is clear enough. Are there any references for this? I heard that on the Constantine's column is a shield from this period, but I cannot find any picture. Can someone please help me and post here a link or something? I would appreciate that.

Are there also other references? What could be on the legionary shield? I guess name and sign of the legion, but what about some decorations?

Thank you.

Best Regards

The Adamklissi metopes and Trajan's Column should point you in the right direction...and in some cases, make you scratch your head in wonder. Not nearly enough information exists on Roman scutum patterns for ANY time span to make most of us happy.

Quote:I heard that on the Constantine's column is a shield from this period, but I cannot find any picture. Can someone please help me and post here a link or something?

The shield from the Arch of Constantine is shown at the bottom of this post here by Christian K. The design (on an oval shield) shows a figure of Victory standing on a globe in the upper portion, with a pair of linked animal heads (goats? sea monsters? you be the judge...) in the lower portion. The placement of the Victory figure recalls the similar placement of an eagle with thunderbolt, and a standing figure of Hercules, on the shields portrayed on the near-contemporary Arch of Galerius.

However, these three designs all date from the late 3rd/early 4th centuries, rather than the period you specified. The Dura Europos shields would be closer in date - but Trajan's column would be almost as distant in the other direction...

As for actual examples of Antonine-Severan shield designs... I'd be interested if anyone could suggest one!

- Nathan

Quote:The shield from the Arch of Constantine is shown at the bottom of this post here
- Nathan

Oh sorry, of course I meant Arch of Constantine, not column. Thank you very much for information.

Now I am a bit confused because I read that somewhere on that arch is shield pattern similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3j3Ij9rf...9486118D0E
It is a picture in 2:00 - legionary shield on the very left. What do you think about this? I saw this pattern also on the picture in Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161 - 284 (made by Angus McBride too).

They look rather like one of the ones on Trajan's Column (on the right here):



...with the square around the boss from the Dura shield. I don't know if this design is attested elsewhere (?)

There is another shield design, found I think in Egypt - four large rectangles or squares framing pictures of soldiers or Gods. I've seen it reproduced a few times - perhaps somebody here can provide an illustration? It might be Severan, or perhaps a bit later.

Actually I am doing a picture. It is nearly finished I need only shield pattern. Members of Legio X Gemina Pia Fidelis from Czech Republic would like to see that pattern with dolphins (?) and Neptun's trident (they use it I think). But I wanted to see real evidence how it looks like.

Quote:They look rather like one of the ones on Trajan's Column (on the right here):

I am sorry, but did you see what I wanted? :roll: I meant picture of roman legionary AD 150 ...in that video it is a pic from 2:00 min. There is a shield on the left. It is yellow with fishes/dolphins (?) and with trident.

Some additional information here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Romanshield/

Quote:I meant picture of roman legionary AD 150 ...in that video it is a pic from 2:00 min. There is a shield on the left. It is yellow with fishes/dolphins (?) and with trident.

Ah, yes - sorry, now I see what you mean! I was too put off by the horrid music on that clip to watch it properly... That is an interesting design.


EDIT* - Martin, my apologies! I seem to have gone off in the wrong direction here. I've now found the source for the 'dolphin and trident' shield, and it does indeed come from the Arch of Constantine, as you originally suggested - however, it's actually on one of the Marcus Aurelius panels reused on the Arch, which is what caused my confusion...

Half of the shield is depicted - the soldier carrying it has his back turned, and wears some dodgy-looking segmentata:

[img size=434x571]http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/churchhistory220/lectureone/ArchConstantineRectangels9.jpg[/img]

It's a bit hard to make out, but here's a larger image.

- Nathan

That is what I was thinking about. I am sorry If I confused you. I quite like that pattern, though we dont know the unit and that symbols (fish, trident) seems to be suitable for some marines or navy force. For me is important that it is (probably) accurate for the period of the Marcomannic Wars.

Thank you you helped me a lot.

well
dolphins and fish
I wonder if XI Claudia p.f. took part in those campaigns, it is the only legion I know to have an "ocean" symbol: Neptune

Quote:well
dolphins and fish
I wonder if XI Claudia p.f. took part in those campaigns, it is the only legion I know to have an "ocean" symbol: Neptune

Interesting. Although I know still little about Roman legions, I searched wikipedia and Livius and found no connection with Marcus Aurelius or Marcomannic wars. :/

Quote: wonder if XI Claudia p.f. took part in those campaigns, it is the only legion I know to have an "ocean" symbol: Neptune

XI Claudia was based in Moesia Inferior, of course, so quite a way from the theatre of operations - but quite possibly vexillations drawn from the legion participated in the war.

Even so, I'd be wary of attributing shield designs like this without further evidence. A figure of Neptune does appear on a XI Claudia coin of Gallienus:



... which shows a trident and what looks like a little dolphin too. It's become fashionable recently to see a connection between these 'legion' coin images showing animals, Gods etc and the supposed shield design of the unit (Dando-Collins develops this ad absurdum in one of his books) - a neat theory, but we don't (yet) have the proof to back it up.

A Swiss (I think) XI Claudia reenactment group do use this image already though:

Quote:



There is another shield design, found I think in Egypt - four large rectangles or squares framing pictures of soldiers or Gods. I've seen it reproduced a few times - perhaps somebody here can provide an illustration? It might be Severan, or perhaps a bit later.

John Conyard has done an excellent version of this on a later scutum.
It is I understood a later period, but still very good!

Has anybody ever put together a comprehensive compendium (book, database, website etc) of known Roman shield designs? It strikes me that there are actually quite a large number of them, well beyond the usual ones from Trajan's Column and the ND, and many from rather obscure and inaccessible sources. Off the top of my head, there are Republican sarcophagi, the galley relief from Praeneste, the columns of Marcus Aurelius and Theodosius, Arch of Constantine, Dura Europos (several, beyond the famous ones), Piazza Armerina mosaics, Mainz column bases, Puteoli reliefs, the Arch of Orange, various catacomb paintings, the Luxor frescoes, the Egyptian shield mentioned above, the Apamea stelae, the Alba bathhouse mosaics, and no doubt several others... An image of the source and a reconstruction drawing or painting would be pretty good.