Hello everyone, I have a few questions about 1st century Roman legionary clothing which I hope you will be able to answer. For the record: I'm not a re-enactor but just a collector. It doesn't have to be 100% perfect, as long as the price/accuracy rating is in order and it is able to pass as the real thing.
1. Tunic: RTU2001 Short-Sleeved Madder Red Wool tunic (as seen here:
http://www.lawrensnest.com/tunics.html ). Is this one any good and would a linen version also be acceptable or did Roman legionaries only wear woolen tunics?
2. Subarmalis: RAC9007a made from heavy linen, with padded shoulder guards, simple version without ptergis (as seen here:
http://www.lawrensnest.com/accessories.html ). Is this one okay to wear with a lorica segmentata?
3. Focale: RAC9003 Wool or Linen Focale 36"x36" (as seen here:
http://www.lawrensnest.com/accessories.html ). How accurate is it, should it be wool or linen and which colour should it have?
4. Paenula: RCL3001 woolen paenula with hood (as seen here:
http://www.lawrensnest.com/roman-cloaks.html ). How accurate is this one and would Madder Red be an acceptable colour?
5. Is this clothing only available through La Wren's nest or are there also European sources that sell them? Importing from the USA is more expensive so a European alternative would be great. (btw: unlike all these handy DIY'ers out there I'm too clumsy to make anything myself, so that's not really an option)
6. Caligae: Daniyal Steelcrafts DSC036/11 Castleford/Valkenburg pattern caligae (size: UK 11 / EU 45) (as seen here:
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cts_id=397 ). How accurate are they and will they fit? I've heard they are a bit too wide, anyone has any experience with these or knows of other good "off the shelf" caligae?
Hello Frank.
Over the past ten years I collected as much of the evidence that I could find on military clothing. This information has been published in several volumes by Osprey under the heading 'Roman Military Clothing' and in a single much larger volume published more recently by The History Press 'Roman Military Dress' 2009, which has the more up to date evidence. These books should help you decide what you want and answer most of your questions.
To be honest in some cases we do not know what the real thing looked like. This applies to the design of garments more than anything else as in some cases we only have a name mentioned in literature. For example a sagum looks very similar to a lacerna or an abolla
Colour, in particular tunic colour more than other clothing items is a very contentious issue amongst re-enactors more than anyone else. This is because they have tended to divide into various camps over the years and defend their chosen colour with fanatical zeal. Again I found as much evidence as I could on this subject and the latest book has all this evidence so you can make up your own mind. Again in some cases there will not be clear answers to your questions because the evidence is simply not there. For example I do not know of any surviving focale and once more there is little in the way of evidence for their colour.
With regards to caligae an awful lot of re-constructions do not appear to me to be based on original finds and the leather also tends to be too thick. The originals often appear very fragile by comparison. I would advise in all cases to look at original finds first rather than modern copies, this applies to clothing too. Martin Moser who is on this site knows far more than me on the subject of caligae and makes excellent footwear. I just wish I could afford some myself!
As you live in the Netherlands the good and very helpful guys from the Gemina Project will also be able to assist. They might even try and recruit you!
Best wishes in your search
Graham.
yeah, either contact Gemina or
CORBVLO. At least the last one has access to a professional dressmaker, with historical knowledge who can supply all clothes you describe here.
Only the boots she can't make, but I think the DSC caligae with Valkenburg pattern are okay to go with. And yes, you're always welcome to join an event of either Gemina or CORBVLO I think. And Grahams Roman Military Dress surely is the source to go by for you questions.
Quote:Short-Sleeved Madder Red Wool tunic ... would a linen version also be acceptable ?
Not a red one, you can't get a true red on linen with the dyes available then
Quote:6. Caligae: Daniyal Steelcrafts DSC036/11 Castleford/Valkenburg pattern caligae (size: UK 11 / EU 45) (as seen here: http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cts_id=397 ). How accurate are they and will they fit? I've heard they are a bit too wide, anyone has any experience with these or knows of other good "off the shelf" caligae?
I don't know about the fit etc. as I haven't ever handled or worn those but from a pattern point of view, these are the best off the shelf caligae you can get at the moment AFAIK.
Quote: Batavian wrote:Short-Sleeved Madder Red Wool tunic ... would a linen version also be acceptable ?
Not a red one, you can't get a true red on linen with the dyes available then
I did an experiment with this a while back, but I used Armenian Cochineal (a European native scale beetle), the process of actually getting it anything more than a salmon pink would require at least 4-5 times through a dye bath - boiling the fabric in the dye for up to an hour at a time and re-mordanting before each reheat. If you look at Adrians copy of the Dura tunic, the decoration is actually linen and this is the stuff I dyed but I also used 7% tartaric acid at the end of the dye (please don't try without proper protective gear, its pretty yucky) - I used linen because it 'folds' and 'sticks' more effectively into a sharp decoration when using applique work - but I would think that based upon my experiences of trying to use dyes on linen, it may not have been cost effective for fabricae to undertake such work on an industrial basis. Fixing dyes on linen are also a problem as mordanting also takes twice as long in my experience. I'm not sure if this was the case, but if one uses a kermes or other scale beetle dye such as the European Cochineal or South American Cochineal, it is possible to get the colour more vibrant by adding Tartaric Acid during the last 10-15 minutes of the dyeing process. But whether Roman dyers were aware of the possibilities, I don't know, I certainly haven't seen any evidence to suggest they were.
When making the Paludamentum for Doc who posts on here, I initially used a fine 100% linen thread to hem the 'cut' edges of the garment - I found that when using the Armenian cochineal to dye the fabric - the linen took up only 10-15% of the dye from the bath and this bath was boiling for about 1.5 hours.I had to unpick that and use 100% woollen darning thread that is 2ply z spun semi worsted... that obviously took up the dye much more effectively.
What about the Neolithic red linen cloth from Isreal? - I read something about a massive piece of cloth being found in a cave or something?
Cheers - very interesting stuff
Thanks so far! Does anyone have any experience with the subarmalis by the way?
Quote:yeah, either contact Gemina or CORBVLO. At least the last one has access to a professional dressmaker, with historical knowledge who can supply all clothes you describe here.
What prices would I be looking at then, since I don't have that much to spend? And do they have an online store?
Quote:Thanks so far! Does anyone have any experience with the subarmalis by the way?
jvrjenivs:hnnh7wj5 Wrote:yeah, either contact Gemina or CORBVLO. At least the last one has access to a professional dressmaker, with historical knowledge who can supply all clothes you describe here.
What prices would I be looking at then, since I don't have that much to spend? And do they have an online store?
Don't know what the prices would be, but they are good in general. Possibly competitive to La wrens nest for sure (and you don't need shipping from the states and import duties. Just contact Corbvlo using the form on our website, and your question will be forwarded to our dressmaker.
if you are on a budget, and live in the Netherlands as i saw, you could also go to the market and buy the fabric, maybe your mother wife or yourself can make it.
The patarms can be found on deveral sites like the one of xx legion
groetjes
also a member of Corbvlo
Making stuff myself is going to make it way more complicated, since I'm very bad at handiwork. The only thing I ever succesfully made was a leather sheath for a flint dagger and even that was terrible! :wink:
Quote:Don't know what the prices would be, but they are good in general. Possibly competitive to La wrens nest for sure (and you don't need shipping from the states and import duties. Just contact Corbvlo using the form on our website, and your question will be forwarded to our dressmaker.
Thanks! I'll send them a message.
For a Subarmalis you can also contact Deborah Lough at the padded armour company
www.paddedarmour.com
There are several possible designs which I have illustrated in Roman Military Dress. However there is a possibility part of an actual example has been discovered in Israel but we await final publication of the finds.
Graham.
Quote:Quote: Batavian wrote:Short-Sleeved Madder Red Wool tunic ... would a linen version also be acceptable ?
Not a red one, you can't get a true red on linen with the dyes available then
What about the Neolithic red linen cloth from Isreal? - I read something about a massive piece of cloth being found in a cave or something?
I
think there's some very early textile from Spain coloured with red ochre, maybe it was done the same way?
Interestingly, you can dye linen with shellfish purple, though
Quote:Interestingly, you can dye linen with shellfish purple, though
I might try that as a project when the weather gets a bit warmer in the spring and I move house so will have more space to squeeze some sea snails
The red ochre thing is interesting - I've never tried to use that to dye with - but I must admit, I do find prehistoric textiles absolutely fascinating..
I was reading the other day about the plant fibre still attached to a Mesolithic bone fish hook from Tybrind Vig in Denmark...
Hello Frank, I've notified our costume department. I expect you'll be contacted shortly. Keep in touch. For just in case you want to know how it actually feels to wear your kit.
Wim van Broekhoven