There was anexcellent program on TV the other night, wit ha Hungarian archer demonstrating a similar technique, also as a mounted archer.
It was quite impressive the speed and accuracy!
Buts paid to the factoid tha tthey would be just firing innaccurately at a a mass. 8) :o
Quote:Buts paid to the factoid tha tthey would be just firing innaccurately at a a mass. 8) :o
Depends on what one would consider a "battlefield distance". How close would a horse archer come to a formation of infantry?
Close enough to stay out of reach!
Riders recreating Mongolian horse archery with stirrups, shoot to the right side of the bow, using an eastern release, and are able to shoot and “reload” on the move. They carry spare arrows in their left hand resting against the stave of the bow. After the release they can use their right hand to pull down a new arrow on to the string, to the right side of the stave. The way eastern arrows are fletched means there is no right or wrong way to place the arrow on the string. Riders stand in their stirrups to minimise the rise and fall as the horse travels over the ground. They will use thumb rings.
Roman riders at the canter without stirrups, shooting in a western style, using western fletchings, take longer to knock a new arrow to the string. We don't need thumb rings, but will need bracers.
A horse archer will want the arrow to hit the target before it starts slowing down, and it's kenetic energy is still high. Around 40m would be fine. But as with all archery you can shoot for distance.
When a horse archer approaches a individual "stunt" legionary for a pass, the legionary will always cover their face with their shield. It is so tempting to shoot them at close range in the foot or shin. But you need to resist.
There is a lovely little 14th century treatise on horse archery available at De ReMilitari:
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/s ... rchery.htm
It says the following on holding the arrows:
"Take ten arrows that are suitable for this practice. Hold five of them together with the grip (of the bow) and insert (the other) five between the fingers of your right hand. When you finish shooting the arrows that were between your fingers, take the arrows next to the grip and insert them between your fingers, then shoot them as before. These arrows should be thin, so that they will fit between your fingers while you shoot. And only God knows better."
Enjoy
Cole
Quote:Riders recreating Mongolian horse archery with stirrups, shoot to the right side of the bow, using an eastern release, and are able to shoot and “reload” on the move. They carry spare arrows in their left hand resting against the stave of the bow.
We see this practice on some Parthian iconographic sources as well.
Thank you Cole for the excellent reference. It makes archery sound like poetry.
For references of Parthian, Roman and other styles it is a pleasure to read, Coulston J.C. (1985) “Roman Archery Equipment” in Bishop M.C. The Production and Distribution of Roman Military Equipment. Proceedings of the Second Roman Military Equipment Seminar, BAR International Series 275, Oxford, 220-366.
My pleasure! I wouldn't be surprised if it was poetry before translation...
Enjoy!
Cole
The so called 'Roman Draw' is the 'eastern' thumb draw. Lots of thumb rings have been found in Byzantine territory.
-Rick
Quote:John Conyard:zmtoauzg Wrote:Riders recreating Mongolian horse archery with stirrups, shoot to the right side of the bow, using an eastern release, and are able to shoot and “reload” on the move. They carry spare arrows in their left hand resting against the stave of the bow.
We see this practice on some Parthian iconographic sources as well.
Hmmmm.
I would say the western release corresponds to the Roman method, placing the arrow to the left of the stave and typically using a bracer, but no thumb ring.
The eastern draw places the arrow to the right of the shaft and uses a thumb ring. I apreciate that some have identified the occassional thumb ring from the western Empire. Alledgedly, possibly, perhaps. But probably not
From memory the fletchings at Dura suggest that some were using the eastern method, which shouldn't be suprising considering the location.
Of course the Empire lasts longer in the East beyond Bridlington, and I'm sure that in time the eastern method gains in popularity.
Always a man to put in my 2 cents--I think most horse archery is mean to be used at ranges of about three feet. Cole will, I think, support me that the mass of evidence from Scythia to Wallachia indicates that Horse Archers used the bow the way later cavalry used the pistol (except with more accuracy). This is not to imply that longer shots weren't taken, but expert horse archery involved shooting from lose up, especially against massed armoured targets--looking to make a whole in the enemy formation, and then driving in with a blade. There are whole manuals on this--Mamluk and Ottoman--and they match with battlefield descriptions from quite early to as late as Montecucolli and Eugene of Savoy, both of whome wrote very exact descriptions on the Ottoman horse archer.
John, I'm under the impression that the only difference between stirrups and no stirrups is the time it takes to train a rider. I've shot a bow from horseback sans stirrups--but not well enough to guess which is right
And I bow to your vastly superior riding experience--I had "assumed" that the "experts" were right in revising the revision...
I do tend to agree.
Most of the sources I have seen that actually describe archery being used against formed troops include a component where the archers get as close as they can to the formation. This is true even of Agincourt, where Jehan de Wavrin describes the English archers shooting from just beyond the reach of the French lances once they are bogged down in the mud. In fact, this is when he describes the English working their real execution upon the French.
I also see in the shooting to two sides drill in the Mamluk treatise a clear indicator that horse archers should be prepared to "thread the needle" and ride through gaps in enemy formations firing accurately to left and right.
All of this I suspect is to goad them into reacting in some way, breaking up their formation, running, over compacting, and generally making their lives suck.
Have fun!
Cole
Some dedicate their lives to horse archery, and are able to write of its zen-like mystical quality. But I'm a grumpy Roman who can barely write. Roman manuals state horse archery is a matter of practice not skill. I walk the horse around the yard getting it and myself used to shooting, at first to the left, then the front and rear and finally to the right. Right is difficult for a right-hander. Then we do it at a slow trot, and a fast trot, then a canter. We do it for hours. If the horse responds to my voice or leg it's useful. Eventually the horse will know what's going to happen better than I do.
You release the string when the horse is in balance. Initially when you drop the reins to take the shoot time seems to speed up, your heart beat increases and everything goes wrong. After a while you learn to take your time and enjoy selecting your target. Things actually seem to slow down.
Stirrups allow the rider to raise themselves above the saddle and so cushion themselves against the motion of the horse. You are in a better postion to achieve that steady balance needed to take the shoot. But I learnt to ride without stirrups and my four horn saddle really puts me in contact with the horse. You can feel its motion and just know when it's right to release the arrow.
I believe that there were many different schools of horse archery. In the Middle East there was a tradition of "shower-shooting" in volleys, often while stationary. Shooting at the gallop was practised by indiviuals. Targets were set up at distance (around 75m) or at close range (6m). The Central Asian tradition placed more emphasis on shooting and movement. But I hate the way we feel the need to classify everything.
The velocity of the arrow depends on the efficiency and power or draw weight of the bow, the draw distance from stave to ear, the weight of the arrow, and the drag of the arrow through the air. Penetration depends upon velocity, weight, the design of the arrowhead and composition of the target. Archers can always shoot for distance. But to do maximum damage I shoot within 40m, so the arrow hits the target before it has started to slow down. Of course some days I can't hit anything at all, and the horse justs wants to go home.
At a public show riders need to ride well within themselves. One blunt arrow each pass, probably shot to the left at a live infantry target, at around 3-20m would be the average.
If I shoot too close to a shield with a blunt arrow, there is a good chance the thing will rebound and hit me or the horse.
Anyway it's fun to try and I recomend that everybody has a go, even at the walk.