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Christian, thanks a lot!
I found three more articles which are really helpful on the matter. I suppose I now know what I´m going to do. Smile

BTW: I looked at your nice homepage: Very informative, good structure. But where the hell did you find this definition of experimental archaeology? Confusedhock:
Hmm. Not sure I understand. What's wrong with it?
Hi Christian!
The definiton of experimental archaeology on your site is as follows:

Quote:Experimental archaeology is a process where living history is used to model the past in such a way that we can learn something about how it worked - whether in cooking, dance, or of time, effort, and money goes into the painstaking recreation of material culture; the clothing and physical objects from a particular historical period.
But material culture alone will not “reveal” the past, nor does the study of material culture alone help us to understand the complexities of recreation. In addition, study of “intellectual culture” plays a role in recreating the past at a level sufficiently meaningful and layered to actually yield useful data on how the past may have worked.
Quote:A brief but actually very precise explanation from Wikipedia for Experimental Acrhaeology is as follows:

Quote:Experimental archaeology employs a number of different methods, techniques, analyses, and approaches in order to generate and test hypotheses or an interpretation, based upon archaeological source material, like ancient structures or artifacts.[1] It should not be confused with primitive technology which is not concerned with any archaeological or historical evidence, living history or historical reenactment, which is generally undertaken as a hobby, for entertainment or to demonstrate a romantic atmosphere of a specific (pre)historic era.
One of the main forms of experimental archaeology is the creation of copies of historical structures using only historically accurate technologies. This is sometimes known as reconstruction archaeology. However, the product of experimental archaeology is data, not the constructed item itself.

Like in natural sciences experimental archaeology needs some premises to actually be experimental archaeology.

1. Hypothesis / Question
3. Breadboard
4. Experiment with a) active change (dependent & independent variable)
b) extermination of distorting variables
5. Repeatability, quantification
6. Analysis and Discussion of "Generalizability",
7. Publication in a scientific medium

If one of the above is not undertaken it is not experimental archaeology. (Though some of the above is sometimes disputable in detail e.g. #4).
Please son´t see this as a personal critique or something, it is just often the case that the term is used out of its actual semantic field. ^^
Cheers! Christian
I would view that from wiki as the innacurate definition, and mine/ours as the accurate one. Big Grin

Happy to debate it, too. Big Grin
Quote:Experimental archaeology is a process where living history is used to model the past in such a way that we can learn something about how it worked - whether in cooking, dance, or battle - requiring a focus on testing one or more hypotheses concerning a single aspect of historic life and culture. This approach requires much in-depth research to correctly set up the experiment - any of the aspects potentially affecting the hypothesis under test must conform as closely as possible to the historic originals.

In our form of experimental archaeology, a great deal of time, effort, and money goes into the painstaking recreation of material culture; the clothing and physical objects from a particular historical period.

That's actually what the site says. (Sorry to be touchy, just amending your post).

The use of historic techniques to reproduce structures is a form of historic preservation. The use of period techniques to reproduce technologies that have been lost is a matter of craftsmanship, although it often blurs over into experimental archaeology, as when a group in, I think Denmark, demonstrated how early bronze casting might have been done.

At least, that's the way the world of academe and museum professionals seem to use the words here in North America.
Hi Christian!
I think this is the vital difference:
Quote:One of the main forms of experimental archaeology is the creation of copies of historical structures using only historically accurate technologies. This is sometimes known as reconstruction archaeology. However, the product of experimental archaeology is data, not the constructed item itself.
"Experimental Acrhaeology" as such is an academic discipline. There are AFAIK international "standards" about it:
See e.g.:
[url:3i83vu3a]http://www.exar.org/html/englisch/association_history.html[/url]
[url:3i83vu3a]http://www.exarc.net/[/url]

What you describe is "Archaeotechniqe" or "Archaeological Reconstruction" resp. "Archaeological Reproduction"

See also:
[url:3i83vu3a]http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/archaeology/experimental_archaeology.html[/url]

Quote:At least, that's the way the world of academe and museum professionals seem to use the words here in North America.
We have a similar problem here, but it mainly concerns museum pedagogues and reenactors. Unfortunately many simply don´t know exactly what experimental archaeology actually is. I know some Roman reenactors here in Germany who continually talk to the audience and to reporters about the great work they do as Experimental Archaeologists, and they tell everyone about the great experiments they make, like when they cooked that Apicius dish which tasted really strange, or like when they went on a march, and it was sooo tough to carry all that equipment around etc. p.p. That´s what people read, then. That´s what constitutes the general assumption of what experimental archaeology is. (In fact it is some kind of unnamed personal experience.) Then the museum pedagogue also thinks: "Hey, It´s way cooler to advertise this event we´ll have in summer with "Experimental Archaeology". Sounds way more serious than "Fun weekend with Roman reenactors", and there you go... Academics not excluded from this process. ^^
Simply put: No scientific experiment, no scientific publication: No Experimental Archaeology.
We all agree that Archaeology is an academic discipline, I guess. Why, suddenly, should Experimental Archaeology be not? ^^
I don't disagree with much of that, Chris. Here's where I do differ.

I care little for the attempt by academics to co-opt words and ideas that were originated for the use of non-academics. Experimental archaeology as a term may have been co-opted--that's not how I see it. And I refuse to play jargon.

I understand what you mean, though. Many reenactors are not conducting controlled experiments. reenactors come in many flavours, and as a hobbyist, I am prepared to play with all of them. But--some are also excellent historians--considerably more passionate and more skilled than many of the lack-lustre "professional academics" who have wrecked the field since 1970. I recceomend VD Hanson's comments on the subject in his epilogue to "The Other Greeks." Spot on.

So--some reenactors are real historians and they ought to enjoy credit for their efforts.

It is not necessary, for instance, that a reenactor publish his findings in an academic journal to "count." It is necessary that he or she provide data points that somebody makes use of--and often the best use is made by academia, but not always. Many of us in North America have helped Christian Duffy and Brent Nosworthy, both of whom are well-known professional military historians. Neither one publishes "academic" works. But both have either commissioned experiments or listened at length to our experiences with battlefield communications in 18th c. warfare by drum, voice, and messenger.

Sometimes, reenactors are asked to perform experiments by academics. Sometimes their work is even credited Smile .

But be fair--much history these days is done outside the academic realm. Let's take archaeology--and I warn you that I come from a family of archaeologists... Smile

Less than 5% of archaeological digs produce any useful academic publication. About 50% manage a site report. Vast mounds of uncatalogued finds sit in university warehouses or rot at find-sites or are simply sold to the black market. Right? But we continue to have digs--bigger, faster, wider, and deeper--because students and professors love to dig, and because the act of digging, not the boring act of classification and reporting, is what gets donations and dollars.

Yet no one threatens to tell these people that they are "not archaeologists." Am I being unfair?

All over the world, there are groups with serious memberships who do serious work. Sometimes they also have fun and create historical pageants and even hit each other with weapons, but they are interested in, and capable, of doing serious stuff.

I'm more facile with my own group's work--so, for instance, a few years ago, we constructed about fifteen meters of historical earthworks with only period tools and sixty men working. We used a period engineering manual under the guidance of a trained history professional who had dug and reconstructed such earthworks. We used period tools. And we got the job done.

The experiment was to see how the works decayed, not how they were built. So every few months (still ongoing) a team goes and photographs the works. This is part of a publication on maintenance and decay in "real" earthworks for a professional audience.
I'm hard put to see how this is NOT experimental archaeology.

I'll go a step further and say that there's a growing body of academics prepared to turn reenactors into experimental archaeologists, just as relic hunters were harnessed in the 1990s, first in the UK and now all over the world. This is good.

Just for fun, I'm pretty sure that I was in the generation and perhaps even the group that coined the term "Experimental Archaeologist." (I'd be very surprised if that term was not coined by George Neuman, the weapons collector and historian, in 1975). I'm mystified how anyone can redefine it to exclude me! (LOL)

I'll close by sort of shooting back at the idea of academic history and archaeology being a discipline practiced like science by professionals. I'm currently reading a work called "the Hunt in Ancient Greece" by an avowed member of the "Paris School" who wants to use the hidden meanings in the accumulation of images on Greek vases to create meanings and sub-texts that were only understandable to a 5th C. Athenian audience. She wants to read complex meaning into scenes of hunting and war.

But it is clear to me that she has never hunted, nor made war. And to me, that makes her too ignorant to approach the subject she has undertaken.

Many reenactors could have helped her. And they could have taken her on a deer hunt with spears. And after that act of experimental archaeology, I dare say she'd have written a better book.

Big Grin
Hi Chris!
Quote:I don't disagree with much of that, Chris. Here's where I do differ.

I care little for the attempt by academics to co-opt words and ideas that were originated for the use of non-academics. Experimental archaeology as a term may have been co-opted--that's not how I see it. And I refuse to play jargon.
. That´s not the point. The point is to use terms correctly. For what you describe on your hp there are terms as well, as I explained above.^^

Quote:I understand what you mean, though. Many reenactors are not conducting controlled experiments. reenactors come in many flavours, and as a hobbyist, I am prepared to play with all of them. But--some are also excellent historians--considerably more passionate and more skilled than many of the lack-lustre "professional academics" who have wrecked the field since 1970. I recceomend VD Hanson's comments on the subject in his epilogue to "The Other Greeks." Spot on.

So--some reenactors are real historians and they ought to enjoy credit for their efforts.
Well. I am an historian and do Living History e.g. so yes, some are.
However, noone is a "historian" if he never learned the methods of the subject, IMO. Robert (Vorti) recently wrote something very daft about this here in the forum, I just can´t find it at the moment.

Quote:It is not necessary, for instance, that a reenactor publish his findings in an academic journal to "count." It is necessary that he or she provide data points that somebody makes use of--and often the best use is made by academia, but not always. Many of us in North America have helped Christian Duffy and Brent Nosworthy, both of whom are well-known professional military historians. Neither one publishes "academic" works. But both have either commissioned experiments or listened at length to our experiences with battlefield communications in 18th c. warfare by drum, voice, and messenger.
I never said that the experimentor has to bublish in persona. The experiment and its results have to be published to make it archaeology. However, the "Experimental" Archaeologist" is the person whichputs up the question, works out the evaluation and publishes the results, not necessarily the people involved in the experiment. ^^

Quote:Sometimes, reenactors are asked to perform experiments by academics. Sometimes their work is even credited Smile .

But be fair--much history these days is done outside the academic realm. Let's take archaeology--and I warn you that I come from a family of archaeologists... Smile

Less than 5% of archaeological digs produce any useful academic publication. About 50% manage a site report. Vast mounds of uncatalogued finds sit in university warehouses or rot at find-sites or are simply sold to the black market. Right? But we continue to have digs--bigger, faster, wider, and deeper--because students and professors love to dig, and because the act of digging, not the boring act of classification and reporting, is what gets donations and dollars.

Yet no one threatens to tell these people that they are "not archaeologists." Am I being unfair?
No you´re not. We don´t have these numbers over here in Germany to that extent any longer, since a large part of the excavations is made by private companies since a while. These HAVE to publish within a certain time frame, and actually DO publish.^^
But yes, IMO an archaeologist who doesn´t publish is no archaeologist. He´s an excavator, when he does what you describe.

Quote:All over the world, there are groups with serious memberships who do serious work. Sometimes they also have fun and create historical pageants and even hit each other with weapons, but they are interested in, and capable, of doing serious stuff.

I'm more facile with my own group's work--so, for instance, a few years ago, we constructed about fifteen meters of historical earthworks with only period tools and sixty men working. We used a period engineering manual under the guidance of a trained history professional who had dug and reconstructed such earthworks. We used period tools. And we got the job done.

The experiment was to see how the works decayed, not how they were built. So every few months (still ongoing) a team goes and photographs the works. This is part of a publication on maintenance and decay in "real" earthworks for a professional audience.
I'm hard put to see how this is NOT experimental archaeology.
Well it IS experimental archaeology, but your group aren´t all experimental archaeologists through participating in an archaeological experiment. To make a maybe strong comparison:
Noone would call a Bunsen burner or a test tube a "chemist". :wink:

Quote:
I'll go a step further and say that there's a growing body of academics prepared to turn reenactors into experimental archaeologists, just as relic hunters were harnessed in the 1990s, first in the UK and now all over the world. This is good.
Well they don´t make them Experimental Archaeologists, they encourage them to take part in archaeological experiments. Some reenactment groups in fact have members which really are experimental archaeologists as well.
Quote:
Quote:Just for fun, I'm pretty sure that I was in the generation and perhaps even the group that coined the term "Experimental Archaeologist." (I'd be very surprised if that term was not coined by George Neuman, the weapons collector and historian, in 1975). I'm mystified how anyone can redefine it to exclude me! (LOL)

I'll close by sort of shooting back at the idea of academic history and archaeology being a discipline practiced like science by professionals. I'm currently reading a work called "the Hunt in Ancient Greece" by an avowed member of the "Paris School" who wants to use the hidden meanings in the accumulation of images on Greek vases to create meanings and sub-texts that were only understandable to a 5th C. Athenian audience. She wants to read complex meaning into scenes of hunting and war.

But it is clear to me that she has never hunted, nor made war. And to me, that makes her too ignorant to approach the subject she has undertaken.

Many reenactors could have helped her. And they could have taken her on a deer hunt with spears. And after that act of experimental archaeology, I dare say she'd have written a better book.
Not if she´s living in Europe, for such a type of hunt would be illegal all over the continent. ^^
But why necessarily a reenactor? Maybe people with experience in hunting would have been enough? Anyway, in my ears this sound like a quite weird project anyway. :roll: Big Grin

What I and AFAIK the scientific world (at least in Europe) understands undeer the term "experimental archaeology" is this, e.g.:
[url:3nqr49xe]http://www.experimentarch.ch/1_wersindwir.php?lang=en&sid=otls4sc28o4r3p2adpkhpiuu51[/url]
Christian, I don't think we're disagreeing on anything other than semantics. But I'll fire one more salvo, just for fun.

It seems to me that although my group--and dozens of others--participate in experimental archaeology by the European definition, that doesn't make them archaeologists....

By your analogy:

Quote:No one would call a Bunsen burner or a test tube a "chemist".

Perhaps not, but once a person has been trained to perform the basic functions of a lab assistant, once that person has performed two or three hundred titrations, then one might quite reasonably call that person a chemist! And we certainly have both "amateur" chemists and "professional" chemists and even "industrial" chemists. Excluding all amateurs from the terms "archaeologist" and "historian" would, I think, be silly. And even then--and I speak only for my own group--in a group with thirty nine members, I think I have eleven members of the history profession, including a practicing archaeologist, the staff Historian of a major military organization, etc, etc. Again, I suspect or know this to be true of a dozen other groups. Are they not experimental archaeologists? I'd go as far as to posit that they are "professional" experimental archaeologists, while I am an "amateur" experimental archaeologist. Except, of course, that I quite regularly write and give lectures, too...

Chris, with due respect, I think that you want to restrict this title--a title that was invented by Americans for the most scientific of reenactors--to some group of academically trained scientists. Yes?

In sociology and feminism, we call this "appropriation" where a strong word or concept is seized by the dominant element in society and used to the despite of the originators.

Quote:Cultural appropriation is the adoption of some specific elements of one culture by a different cultural group. It denotes acculturation or assimilation, but often connotes a negative view towards acculturation from a minority culture by a dominant culture.[1][2] It can include the introduction of forms of dress or personal adornment, music and art, religion, language, or social behavior. These elements, once removed from their indigenous cultural contexts, may take on meanings that are significantly divergent from, or merely less nuanced than, those they originally held.

I understand from your comments why you think we're wrong. But I don't accept your point of view, and I think I'd like to respectfully end this debate with an agreement to disagree.

BTW, that group whose link you sent look and sound excellent. That's the kind of group that always excites me, although the dwelling on material vice intellectual culture has a profound (and not favorable) effect over time (look at the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation sometime..).
Quote:I understand from your comments why you think we're wrong. But I don't accept your point of view, and I think I'd like to respectfully end this debate with an agreement to disagree.
Just quickly, since I´m about to head away:
I don´t think it is necessary to do so. In fact we could agree that the terms are used differently in English and German language. Having compared the central arguments again, that´s what it looks like to me, at least. ^^
If you read German, a summary of the general definnition is below (WP).
In German there were simply more terms created describing the different "approches" to the archaeological experiment. Big Grin

Quote:Definition und Abgrenzung
Die Ausgangslage für experimentalarchäologische Versuche ist eine genau definierte Fragestellung. Die Ergebnisse aus den Versuchen müssen messbar und jederzeit nachvollziehbar sein sowie in allen Einzelheiten dokumentiert werden. Diese Ergebnisse müssen später unter den definierten Bedingungen jederzeit reproduzierbar sein. Aus diesen Gründen sind viele als "experimentalarchäologisch" bezeichnete Aktivitäten, wie zum Beispiel Bronzeguss, Eisenverhüttung im Rennfeuerofen, oder Stein- und Knochenbearbeitung vor Publikum, per Definition, eher der Archäotechnik zuzuordnen.

Berühmte Beispiele
Die Reisen von Thor Heyerdahl sind ein bekanntes Beispiel für experimentelle Archäologie. Heyerdahl baute unter anderem ein Floß (die Kon-Tiki) und besegelte damit den Pazifik. Mit den Schilfbooten Ra I und Ra II versuchte er von Afrika nach Amerika zu reisen. Mit diesen Unternehmungen bewies er experimentell die Haltbarkeit und Seetüchtigkeit dieser frühen Schiffstypen.
Ein bekanntes bauarchäologisches Experiment ist das Erdwerk von Overton Down in Südengland. Dort wurde ein künstlicher Erdwall angelegt, in dem verschiedene Materialien eingegraben sind. Seit der Errichtung 1960 wird beobachtet, wie die Erosion die Gestalt des Walls verändert. In Ausgrabungen wird der Verfall der eingebrachten Stoffe beobachtet. Als Langzeitprojekt soll Overton Down Erkenntnisse über Funderhalt und Erosion erbringen, die in zukünftigen Ausgrabungen angewandt werden sollen. Ein weiteres Beispiel ist die gleichfalls in Großbritannien gelegene Butser Ancient Farm.
Der Münchner Historiker Marcus Junkelmann lieferte im Jahr 1985 ein Beispiel, als er mit einigen Begleitern mit rekonstruierten Waffen und Ausrüstungsgegenständen von römischen Legionären eine Überquerung der Alpen wie vor 2000 Jahren bewältigte.

Experimentalarchäologie in der Lehre
In Deutschland bieten archäologische Institute den Studierenden gelegentlich Kurse in Bronzeguss, Töpferei, Vasenmalerei und anderen Handwerkstechniken an. So soll ein lebendigeres Bild des Studienobjekts und ein besseres Verständnis für das Leben in der Vergangenheit entstehen.
Einen Studiengang in experimenteller Archäologie bietet die Universität von Exeter an.

Experimentelle Archäologie und Museumspädagogik
Museumspädagogisch sind dagegen eher "archäotechnische" Ansätze ebenfalls im Einsatz. Ein Beispiel soll hier das Römermuseum in Haltern sein. Dort kann das Marschgepäck eines Legionärs geschultert werden, eine Erfahrung, die Respekt vor den Marschleistungen der Römer aufkommen lässt.
Allerdings ist eine experimentelle Archäologie als wissenschaftlicher Ansatz von diesen Aktivitäten - die ja in der Regel keine Fragestellungen besitzen und nicht dokumentiert werden, sondern nur Nachempfinden und Vermitteln wollen - deutlich zur Archäotechnik abzusetzen. Wissenschaftliche experimentelle Archäologie ist keine Museumspädagogik und wird auch selten öffentlich angewandt - sie dient nicht der Vermittlung, sondern dem Erkenntnisgewinn für die Forschung.
German literature:
Experimentelle Archäologie in Deutschland. Isensee, Oldenburg 1990.
Erin Keefer (Hrsg.): Lebendige Vergangenheit. Vom Archäologischen Experiment zur Zeitreise (Sonderheft 6 Archäologie in Deutschland),Stuttgart 2006.
Quote:I'd be very surprised if that term was not coined by George Neuman, the weapons collector and historian, in 1975.
I may be wrong, but I believe the term was coined by the American anthropologist Robert Ascher in 1961.
I may well be wrong, as well. My belief is purely experiential...

Too bad! I thought I was there when it was coined... :oops:
I've tried. I've tried very hard. But I can't resist.

The term "experimental archaeology" certainly came into the public domain in the early 1960's. I like the term "reconstruction archaeology". And we've failed to agree on definitions ever since. I fear I consider many papers on experimental archaeology a jot above "What I did on my Summer Holidays".

Experimental archaeology has become linked with re-enactment. I go with the standard three fold definition of re-enactor discussed previously on Romans threads.

1/ "Cavorting Ninnie".

Not my term but I like it. It applies to those who dress up inauthentic clothing, and use inaccurate equipment. I suspect modern fibres, trooper helmets and blunt/needle felt weapons would all get an honorable mention in this category. I'm told by perfectly respectable people there is nothing wrong with being a cavorting ninnie, and I'm trying to be liberal about this. I enjoy an occassional cavort, relax a bit, then put my childish toys away.

2/ Those who strive to reproduce and use items based on actual finds.

Hopefully the majority of groups now use good reproduction equipment. It is much easier to source than 20 years ago. But making it yourself is always more worthy than just buying it from someone else. Some will ask if the item was made using the correct period tools, or using modern tools and methods. Frankly, I don't care that much. I appreciate we can learn from studying the various methods of construction. Roman saddles deserve an honourable mention at this point. But no modern replica can mirror the original artefact. If nothing else they were made by different people with different perceptions of the world in which they live. But a good reproduction artefact can fire the imagination and inspire people to learn more.

3/ Those who learn how the artefact was used, and publish hard data.

And here I suspect we arrive at experimental archaelogy. Without damming cavorting ninnies or the majority of re-enactors, this is certainly a higher form of re-enactment. Learning how to use various sharp weapons and equipment, and publishing hard data would qualify. I would suggest testing equipment and clothing on long marches would qualify. Others may see this as playing at soldiers.

Certainly the line between academics and amateurs is blurred. Both have something to offer.

That feels better. Now it's back to getting Roman cavalry to move in the same direction at the same time. Six of them today.
Quote:Hopefully the majority of groups now use good reproduction equipment. It is much easier to source than 20 years ago. But making it yourself is always more worthy than just buying it from someone else. Some will ask if the item was made using the correct period tools, or using modern tools and methods. Frankly, I don't care that much. I appreciate we can learn from studying the various methods of construction. Roman saddles deserve an honourable mention at this point. But no modern replica can mirror the original artefact. If nothing else they were made by different people with different perceptions of the world in which they live. But a good reproduction artefact can fire the imagination and inspire people to learn more.

Here, here.

John, the only difference ( is this just the reenactment manager talking? I may be turning into a bureacrat) is the use of "higher." If we confess that this is both a passion and a hobby to most (you are a professional, I sometimes am a professional) than I think terms like "higher" and "better" just serve to annoy without accomplishing anything. I think that there's a good case that most reenactors start out as cavorting ninnies--goodness knows I did, despite the objections of my family archaeologist and my family costume designer... I think that these are often stages, and sure, peole can get stuck at a stage, but by and large groups mature.

And then, when they make it all magnificently hard and super-keen authentic, they die... at least, 9 of 10 do.

Anyway, that's a nitpick. Otherwise, enthusiastic agreement. But in North America, the keeners (or what ever you want to call them) are "Experimental Archaeologists." Before Christian's comments, I'd never heard a word from Europe on the subject. My, the ocean is big and deep!
Quote:My, the ocean is big and deep!
´
Let´s fill the damn thing up! ^^
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