RomanArmyTalk

Hello,

I would like to know
a) how long were the Long Walls of Athens at the eve of the Peloponnesian Wars overall, that is including all sections, even those which were protected by others?
b) how long was the longest outer defense line, that is not taking into account those parts which were covered by other walls?

Scranton (1938) writes:

Quote:Thucydides gives the lengths of the walls to be defended as follows:
*Asty circuit, omitting the portion between the Phaleric Wall and the Northern Long Wall, 43 stades
*Long Walls, 40 stades
*Phaleric Wall, 35 stades
*Peiraeus (complete, although only half was to be defended), 60 stades.

SOURCE: Robert L. Scranton: "The Fortifications of Athens at the Opening of the Peloponnesian War", ''American Journal of Archaeology'', Vol. 42, No. 4 (1938), pp. 525–536

178 stades. However, he is unsure how long a stade in m actually is (he calculates on the basis of 150 m, thus b) would be 26 700 m). Additionally, Thucydides does not give any number for the section of the Asty between the Phaleric Wall and the Northern Long Wall, since it was covered by those two walls. Interestingly, depending on how long these parts were, the Long Walls actually seem to be the longest or second longest city walls ever erected (competing with the 15th century Nanjing walls, China). What is your calculation?

http://www.livius.org/lo-lt/long_walls/long_walls.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Mauern.png

Off the top of my head,one stadio was about 185 meters.

Quote:he is unsure how long a stade in m actually is

Values for the stadion: 192.28 (Olympic), 177.5 (Delphi) and 184.80 meter (Parthenon).

Maybe this page is useful for future reference.

Considering the distance between the ancient center of Athens and Piraeus, I would not doubt it. They were no mean achievement!

Livius.org gives 177.6 m for the Attic stade, while aunt Wiki likes to speak of 185 m. Is there a reason for the discrepancy and does a 'correct' value for the Attic stade exist (at least as far as Thucydides is concerned)?

http://www.livius.org/w/weights/weights3.html#length
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadia_(length ) <--copy and paste

My passage goes as follows:

Quote:The longest city walls were those of Classical Athens. Their extraordinary length was due to the construction of the famous Long Walls which played a key role in the city's maritime strategy, by providing it with a secure access to the sea and offering the population of Attica a retreat zone in case of foreign invasions. At the eve of the Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC), Thucydides gave the length of the entire circuit as follows:[1][2] 43 stades (7.6 km) for the city walls without the southwestern section covered by others walls and 60 stades (10.6 km) for the circumference of the Peiraeus port. A corridor between these two was established by the northern Long Wall (40 stades or 7.1 km) and the Phaleric Wall (35 stades or 6.2 km). Assuming a value of 177.6 m for one Attic stade,[3] the overall length of the walls of Athens thus measured about 31.6 km. The structure, consisting of sun-dried bricks built on a foundation of limestone blocks, was dismantled after Athens’ defeat in 404 BC, but rebuilt a decade later.[4] Syracuse, Rome (Aurelian Walls) and Constantinople (Walls of Constantinople) were also protected by very long circuit walls.

Quote:Livius.org gives 177.6 m for the Attic stade, while aunt Wiki likes to speak of 185 m.

Let's make it more complex: Neue Pauly gives 186 m for the Attic stade, 192.3 for the Olympic stade, 177.3 for Delphi, 181.3 for Epidaurus, and 184.3 for Athens - giving us two values for Athens alone. I think the table at Livius.Org is wrong, but I will check it with the maker.

From the above,one could say that a stade was 184,24 meters. 8)

Quote:Scranton ... is unsure how long a stade in m actually is.

Scranton is not unsure how long a stade is, Stefan. He's unsure how long Thucydides' stade is!

As you probably know, different Greek city states had different lengths of stade. Since a stade, by definition, is 600 feet, and an Attic foot measured 296mm, Thucydides' stade ought to be 177.6m.

If I understand Scranton correctly, he is trying to prove that Thucydides actually used a stade of 150m. He finds some support for this theory, so your total of 26,700m should be roughly correct. (I have not checked your arithmetic, but I trust you!)

Quote:If I understand Scranton correctly, he is trying to prove that Thucydides actually used a stade of 150m...

Yes, this is how I understand him, too.

Quote:He finds some support for this theory, ...

Since the article is from 1938, and other online sources which I consulted give an unimpressed 31 to 35 km overall, I wonder how much impact Scranton's calculation actually had on the debate, and whether archaeology has corrobated his figures in the meantime. Guess, I will keep an eye open for more recent research.