RomanArmyTalk

Hello,

I am currently uploading the Cichorius plates
[url=at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... ius_Plates ]here[/url]. They are all public domain, that is they can used by anyone for any (legal) purpose without asking permission.

I took the captions for most pics from Cichorius himself respectively Frank Lepper & Sheppard Frere (1988), but need assistance for naming the details ("Auschnitte") I made from various pictures.

Are the following descriptions ("catapult", "carroballista" etc.) correct?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XXVIII_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XXXI_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVI_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVII_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVII_(Ausschnitt_02).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVII_(Ausschnitt_03).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVIII_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_LVII_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_LVII_(Ausschnitt_02).jpg

PS: Did you notice that the shade of colour of the plates varies wildly from brown over greenish to grey? I assure you I did my best to keep the light conditions stable, but I came to realize that it took only very minor differences (a small cloud or something) to change profoundly the appearance of the pictures. I noticed the same in museums, too.

Stefan,
I am unable to use the links to the images you provided. Not sure what the problem is. Concerning your question about the proper nomenclature of the artillery pieces depicted, I would suggest that referring to any of them as a ballista would be accurate. The more specific term iron-framed ballista should also be acceptable to most artillery buffs. Even though they are arrow firing weapons, calling them catapults will tend to perpetuate the confusion between them and their wooden-framed ancestors. Some would reserve the designation carroballista for the three weapons, as well as the possible one on the Column of Marcus Aurelius, that are shown associated with two-wheeled mule carts. I would suggest that they are all mounted on a common type of base and that some are just shown in a point defense role and others in a more mobile mounted configuration. My favorite term for this type of weapon is field ballista, since it emphasizes the mobility and role of the weapon to separate it from the larger wooden framed siege ballista. Although it is doubtful that the Romans would made this same distinction, it is quite familliar to the modern artillerist.

Hi Randi,
The automatic links don't seem to work, but if you copy-paste the entire link above to your address bar, it will.

Addendum: What the heck are these war machines? hock:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_LXXXV_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg

PS: The entire Cichorius plates of the two Dacian Wars are now uploaded; all plates are included, not a single has been left out.

Good job, Stefan. A labour of love. You must have a giant scanner!

I have only one "correction". It's probably more accurate to say that Tafel 48 shows Dacian catapults (even if they had been supplied by Roman engineers, which they may have been). The main point is that they are enemy machines deployed on the walls of the Dacian town.

Quote:PS: Did you notice that the shade of colour of the plates varies wildly from brown over greenish to grey?

It's worth explaining to people who've never seen the Cichorius volume that the plates display peculiar shifts in tone. They are not uniform monochrome.

Quote:Addendum: What the heck are these war machines?

My absolute favourites! The late Otto Lendle correctly identified these as Apollodorus' "ship's prow tortoises" -- you can see them in my [amazon]Greek and Roman Siege Machinery, 399 BC-AD 363[/amazon], Plate E. (They're on the back cover, too -- so you can see them if you do a Google search.)

I followed your kind suggestions, Randi and Duncan, and rephrased some captions concerning the ballistae and the ship's prow tortoise. For utmost clarity, I put short explanations in brackets and additionally linked the technical terms to their corresponding WP articles:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XXXI_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg#Summary

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVI_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg#Summary

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVII_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg#Summary

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVII_(Ausschnitt_02).jpg#Summary

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_XLVIII_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg#Summary

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... r_Traianss äule,_Tafel_LXXXV_(Ausschnitt_01).jpg#Summary

Quote:Duncan Campbell:
Good job, Stefan. A labour of love. You must have a giant scanner!

Thank you very much! I actually had to use a camera, because the two volumes are far too large and fragile to be scanned or even copied, and I did not want to be shot by the librarian while smuggling these dinosaurs out of the Handschriftenlesesaal to the copying room. wink:

Wow, these are excellent.

I've been looking for a new wallpaper for my computer, and it looks like you just gave me plenty to choose from!

Glad you like it.

I added a subcategory which lists all depictions of Trajan on the column: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... n's_Column

I rearranged the presentation of the whole set of reliefs, making it much more user-friendly and accessible: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Traja ... ius_Plates

Looks amazing Eleatic Guest, thanks a lot!!


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... _XXIII.jpg

Whoa who are those guys at the top? Don't tell me these are cavalry and riders armored head to toe?

The riders are intended to represent Sarmatian Rox-Alani, allies of the Dacians....the sculptors had only the scale shirts and helmets shown on the 'trophy' at the base to work from, and were doubtless told the horses were armoured too - and this totally unrealistic 'reconstruction' is what they came up with.......

Many thanks for doing this- a huge and much appreciated effort!
Cheers

Caballo

High resolutions pics of the Column of Marcus Aurelius now available. You can even make out the carroballista quite clearly:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Colum ... s_Aurelius
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... iew_01.jpg (my favourite version)