In form it looks like a very long mid first century AD dagger. The blade is proportionately very long compared to the length of the tang but they are not impossible proportions. I too wonder about its authenticity. If the length actually is 20 inches then my money would definitely be on it being a fake but I am keen to know if there has been some mistake in reporting the length. 12 inches, for example, would be within the normal range, whereas 20 inches falls well outside it.
Crispvs
Is he a dealer?
seeing those Herculaneum pieces, i am seeing red...... because i do not like artefacts outside of museums....
so please explain who he is.
M.VIB.M.
Quote:seeing those Herculaneum pieces, i am seeing red...... because i do not like artefacts outside of museums....
I took that photo at the Pompeii exhibit when it visited Ottawa in 2005.
Ah great man!!
so he is offering the (we dont know what it is) sword to you?
personally id stay away from it.....
M.VIB.M.
Looks more like a dagger to me....
Quote:so he is offering the (we dont know what it is) sword to you?
What gave you that idea? I am not a collector, rather I am perfectly happy owning accurate reproductions that I can use at reenacting events.
I merely thought to post the picture as the blade shape and construction of the originally posted dagger resembled the one that I saw at Ottawa.
I just got an E-Mail from the expert dating the sword. He said that since it’s hard to give an exact date on something where the appearance has expanded so many years through the period of Rome, that he tends to date later then earlier, and if he’s wrong, no one’s upset.
So he’s not really saying its AD or BC, he’s taking the safe road.
He did say the length is 52 cm with the blade being 38.5 cm.
To me, this brings up the same question, could this be a Pugios with a blade length of 38.5 Does anyone know of, or heard of, any example of Pugios with that size of a blade?
If it’s to long for a Pugio, it must be a sword. Now whether it was used by the legionaries or a gladiator is a different question.
Hear of any Pugios that long?
Quote:I just got an E-Mail from the expert dating the sword. He said that since it’s hard to give an exact date on something where the appearance has expanded so many years through the period of Rome, that he tends to date later then earlier, and if he’s wrong, no one’s upset.
So he has no idea of the provenance or archaeological context of the piece? :?
Quote:Steve Sarak:2lcbmimr Wrote:I just got an E-Mail from the expert dating the sword. He said that since it’s hard to give an exact date on something where the appearance has expanded so many years through the period of Rome, that he tends to date later then earlier, and if he’s wrong, no one’s upset.
So he has no idea of the provenance or archaeological context of the piece? :?
That’s what it would seem. I’m also a little surprised by him saying that it expanded so many years of time and that’s why he’s dating it AD. I though that style of sword faded from the Republic years before the Empire.
But then again, I’m not an expert.
Steve, where is the artefact you mention located?
M.VIB.M.
IMHO:
Very probably Celtiberian, Western Meseta, c. 3rd c. BC.-1st half 2nd BC. Not Roman, although in due time..
Perhaps ex Axel-Guttmann collection?
Quote:IMHO:
Very probably Celtiberian, Western Meseta, c. 3rd c. BC.-1st half 2nd BC. Not Roman, although in due time..
Perhaps ex Axel-Guttmann collection?
I was looking for info on Celtiberian, and came across this, you might be interested in it.
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/ ... io_6_2.pdf
From this link, it looks like Celtiberian didn’t have a wasted sword, looking at the finds of a grave site, page 20, or the figures on a vase, page 26, they did have a ribbed swords though, but I don’t think it was waisted .
Keep in mind that I don’t know anything on Celtiberian or the validity of the pdf.
Good search. Yes, the paper is good and the authors are well known scholars. I'm not, however, in agreement with some of their conclusions.
Anyway, the Celtiberians did inded have waisted swords. They belong to my Types V and VI (or the so-called 'Atance' and 'Arcobriga' types. See attached figure from my 'El Armamento Iberico, 1997.
But IMO your piece does not belong to this group of 'atrophied antennae' swords. It rather belongs to a different group of daggers with longish blades, midrib, no blade grooves, and waisted profile. These are the prototypes of the no much later Republican Roman pugio.
This could be a fairly early example from the area around Avila or the middle Duero valley.
And it very probably formed part of Axel Guttman's Berlin collection.
Best Regards
Thanks for the info.
Quote:But IMO your piece does not belong to this group of 'atrophied antennae' swords. It rather belongs to a different group of daggers with longish blades, midrib, no blade grooves, and waisted profile. These are the prototypes of the no much later Republican Roman pugio.
The more research I do and the more I hear from others, its sounding more and more like this is a long dagger and not a sword. From what you’ve read or seen, do you believe that it not only belongs to the group of daggers, but that it’s actually a dagger and not a sword?
And if so, do you still think the Celtiberians used it, and if not, care to speculate on who did?
At around 35 cm. a blade this length could be termed a 'sword' in Iberia, as swords in celtiberia are VERY short. But the shape and blade is that of the family of Celtiberian daggers, not swords.
So, distinction between long daggers and short swords is traditionally blurred and a real pain in the a**, but overall I'd be tempted to classify this as a dagger.
And, yes, I believe it
could be Celtiberian. Maybe I believe it
is Celtiberian. There are many daggers very close to this shape in Spain. Of course, Romans took pugios from Spain. And the earliest Roman daggers were just that, Celtiberian daggers taken by Romans and used by them, perhaps c. 130 BC, or perhaps c. 75 BC. Anyway, these were Roman
pugiones manufactured by Celtiberian smiths. It must have taken a while until the first really Roman manufactured daggers were produced. I still have my doubts regarding Titelber, for example...
BTW, look for the next volume of
Gladius in December. Everything you ever wanted to now about the Celtiberian daggers and early Roman
pugiones in Spain.
(=
http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius )
Problem is... what about if someone produces evidence of something very similar from, let's say, eastern Poland...
)