RomanArmyTalk

Quote:Likewise, I think the "natural tension of the system" that you mentioned Jona had become so out of balance that even if Caesar had not lived to cross the Rubicon the system would have crashed anyway. The "fall of the Republic" was, by this point, inevitable.

I think you are right, but there is one thought that keeps somewhere in the back of my mind: this is exactly what Caesar and Augustus want us to believe. It is their propaganda that it was monarchy or chaos. They may have been right, but still... :?

Excellent point Jona.

Every historian has an agenda and certainly the documents that we do have from that time period were written by people with very real agendas. With every new bit of information discovered we sharpen our focus, but this question still remains unanswered and is perhaps unanswerable.

It is a fascinating period in history.

:wink:

Narukami

The question of the origin of the 10th?...... :?

Which Tenth? Caesar could have brought one of his "Spanish" legions, no question there, he served as a commander in Spain before he went to Gaul. The Tenth that J. Caesar talks about COULD have been brought up to strength with levies from Spanish citizens, Spain had areas of Roman citizens before J. Caesar.

Just don't buy into Dando-Collins ideas and books without looking at more balanced historical sources, if you want to get a good over view of any Legion, because some of his connections and leaps of intuition ARE NOT well supported, while some others are. :roll:

also look here:
[url:1lz04il0]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/content/view/23/113[/url]
[url:1lz04il0]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/content/view/32/113/[/url]

Well, you can split hairs about which tenth, but I believe Caesar only had one Tenth, which had an equitatus nickname, and more than likely was the same tenth which became the Gemina......?

seem to have lost my text here again, so retyping a truncated response will have to suffice.

I certainly agree tha tyou shouldn't base your conclusions solely on the works of Dando, although he does open many avenues of thought....

Who else besides Caesar wrote anything of accuracy about the legions involved in his campaign? Livy?
I am afraid I cannot read Latin, and have only read the translations of modern historian/translators, so have to base my interpretations of things on these texts, rather than originals, and the works of other modern scholars.

Quote:Well, you can split hairs about which tenth, but I believe Caesar only had one Tenth, which had an equitatus nickname, and more than likely was the same tenth which became the Gemina......?

Yes, that's Caesar's legion. It was disbanded, but many soldiers joined the army again when war broke out against Brutus and Cassius. They took up their old number: a refunded Legio X Equestris. After the battle of Philippi, it became part of the army of Marc Antony.

When war broke out between Octavian and Sextus Pompeius, Octavian also recruited soldiers of the old Tenth. They became Legio X Fretensis.

After the battle of Actium, Octavian took over Marc Antony's Tenth, to which was added another unit. Hence, X Gemina.

Something similar happened to the legions III (Cyrenaica and Gallica), IIII (Macedonica and Scythica), V (Alaudae and Macedonica), VI (Ferrata and Victrix), VII (Claudia and Gemina). After Actium, the Roman legions numbered I to XXII, with III, IIII, V, VI, VII and X being double; together 28 legions. XVII, XIIX, and XIX went lost in the Teutoburg Forest. When Augustus died, the Empire had 25 legions.

Quote:Which Tenth? Caesar could have brought one of his "Spanish" legions, no question there, he served as a commander in Spain before he went to Gaul.

I think he could not. The Spanish legions had, in 59, probably numbers V and VI; VII, VIII, VIIII, and X were in Cisalpine Gaul (Caesar's core army); XI and XII in Illyricum, and so on, from west to east, numbers I to IIII in Italy proper. It is is impossible that soldiers from Spain ended up in Cisalpine Gaul. The only tombstone of a legionary of X Equestris that is from the age of the Civil Wars (it is mentioned by Ritterling), is a man from the Tribus Stellatina, i.e., the plains of the Po, near modern Bologna.

It is generally accepted that legio X was founded by Caesar in around 60 BC in Spain. In Spain several early Legio X inscriptions were found. Caesars Legio X is the same legion as Legio X Equestris and Legio X Gemina. Dando is unfortunately completely wrong.
If anyone wants to read a good book about Caesar, I recomment Adrian Goldsworthy Caesar. extreemly good!!

Marcus Claudius Asclepiades

Maarten Dolmans
Pax Romana

www.paxromana.nl

Quote:It is generally accepted that legio X was founded by Caesar in around 60 BC in Spain.

"Generally accepted" is quite strong. It is not to be found in Ritterling, Keppie, or Le Bohec.

Which recent publications that I've missed state that it was founded there?

As far as I know, it was in Merida in the twenties, for which there is indeed epigraphic evidence. But founded in Spain? I have sincere doubts. I would not be surprised if that was based on Caesar's recruiting extra troops to add to his Baetican legion, when he invaded Lusitania. But there is, to the best of my knowledge, no clue that he could at will move this legion to Cisalpine Gaul.

Maarten wrote:

Quote:It is generally accepted that legio X was founded by Caesar in around 60 BC in Spain. In Spain several early Legio X inscriptions were found. Caesars Legio X is the same legion as Legio X Equestris and Legio X Gemina. Dando is unfortunately completely wrong.
If anyone wants to read a good book about Caesar, I recomment Adrian Goldsworthy Caesar. extreemly good!!

I'm afraid I would have to agree with Jona on this subject ! Maarten is correct that Dando-Collins is hopelessly confused and wrong about Legio X, however the weight of evidence is against him regarding its founding.

Firstly, Caesar is most unlikely to have founded LegioX at all. In 59 BC, he was senior Consul, and in 58 BC he takes over Cis-Alpine Gaul ( in Northern Italy) as his province, where the Tenth form part of his command. Clearly they were raised previously in Italy, but may include Latin colonists in Cis-Alpine Gaul. All seem to have been Roman citizens by birth, (all Italians were since the citizenship was extended in 90 BC), as is evident from epigraphical evidence that some veterans ended up in Italy ( non Italian units, rare at this time in the legions, were not settled in Italy). Evidence for their Italian origin also comes from epigraphic tombstone evidence from veterans of the Tenth who have Italian/Roman names.The subsequent history of the Tenth is set out at http://Livius.orgas posted earlier.The Tenth's first epithet seems to have been Venere - from the goddess Venus, associated with the gens Julii.It is likely that the Tenth acquired the title Equestris some time after the exploit Caesar recounts whereby he mounts them to form ex-tempore cavalry. Caesar's Tenth were due for discharge in 48 BC, ( possibly implying they were raised in 64BC or thereabouts) but this kept getting put off until 45-44 BC after the battle of Munda when the surviving veterans were settled at Narbo (modern Narbonne). In less than a year, they were re-raised by Plancus and ended up, along with the vast majority of Caesar's veterans, in Antony's armies headed east.( All Caesars veteran legions were due for retirement, and often overdue, by 45-44 BC, the year of his assassination, with the exception of V Alaudae)
Seutonius famously refers to the 'disbandment' by Augustus of a Tenth Legion, and this may be a reference to the amalgamation of the Tenth with another unit to form X Gemina, where it is finally recorded around 20 BC taking part in the final conquest of Spain by Augustus, along with many other Legions ( see Livius.org ante).

The Tenth veterans ended up being settled in several places - briefly Narbo in Gaul, and finally of course at Augusta Emerita ( Merida in Spain) from 25 BC, and Caesarea Augusta after 19 BC, but these would not have included any of J.Caesar's original veterans, who would be in their mid-sixties at this time. Veterans from the time the Legion served Antony in the East are found at Patrae (Macedonia) who pointedly used the pre-Augustan epithet Equestris ( settled post Actium) In between,some of those settled at Narbo, were retired at Cremona in northern Italy after 43 BC. IIRC, some were also found at Rome itself and Pompeii.......

Quote:Caesar's Tenth were due for discharge in 48 BC, ( possibly implying they were raised in 64BC or thereabouts)

I don't get the arithmic. Counting backward from the summer of 48, and assuming the official six years, I arrive at the summer of 54 for it being recruited.

Jona wrote:

Quote:I don't get the arithmic. Counting backward from the summer of 48, and assuming the official six years, I arrive at the summer of 54 for it being recruited

...which is clearly wrong, since the Legion was in existence from at least 59 B.C !! :wink:
Traditionally, individual soldiers were liable for service for 16 years, with a further 4 in reserve ( this probably went back to when the army was raised by Age-classes). But this could be exceeded, for example in 171 BC the famous centurion Spurius Ligustinus complained of being called up, having served a total of 22 years in many campaigns and being over 50 years old!
Since the Tenth were in Rome, and demanding discharge in the middle of a war (before the African war ended), it is possible that the legion's soldiers had completed their traditional length of service and could thus possibly have been raised as early as 64 BC or thereabouts, ....as I say, this is only a possibility, not a fact, but it does give us an approximate earliest date for it being raised, which is definitely 59 BC or before.

Quote:Traditionally, individual soldiers were liable for service for 16 years, with a further 4 in reserve

That's odd, I always thought that six years was normal in the Late Republic; this is also what Keppie (Making of the Roman Army) says (e.g., p.147). As far as I know, again through Keppie, is that Augustus first changed that 6 into the 16+4, and later to 20+4.

I don't think 'normal' counted in wartime, certainly not in the late Republic/Civil War era, or earlier for that matter ....consider the Cannae Legions of 218 BC, sent in disgrace to fight in Sicily and ultimately accompany Scipio at Zama in 202 BC....at least 16 years continuous service, and similar lengths of time for legions who accompanied Scipio to Spain and 'volunteered' for the African expedition....indeed it is the increasingly lengthy periods of service throught the second and first centuries that turn Roman peasants, mobilised for a campaign and discharged, into an increasingly professional Army, in turn leading to massive social change in Italy.....

RE Smith, Service in the Post Marian Army, p.35 states that those 16 years were indeed the legal upper limit. It seems very likely that what Augustus did in his famous army 'reforms' was just to adapt the new situation to as many old regulations as possible. 16 years was not randomly chosen, but went back to the number of years a Roman citizen was liable for. IF Legio X was raised from tirones in 64 BC, that would make legally conscious Roman citizens clamor for discharge in 48 BC and, after 6 years of service, make the legion a veteran legion by 58.

Jasper wrote:

Quote:IF Legio X was raised from tirones in 64 BC, that would make legally conscious Roman citizens clamor for discharge in 48 BC and, after 6 years of service, make the legion a veteran legion by 58.

Good point, Jasper, and made more likely by the fact that from the very first mention of the Tenth (Gallic War I.42) Caesar states that he has "absolute confidence in them",(in 58 BC) which is why he takes horses away from the Gallic cavalry to mount the Tenth as his 'cohortis praetoriae' ( personal General's escort)....hardly likely if they were newly raised tirones, with only a year or two's experience, and doubtless the point you had in mind? 8) 8)