RomanArmyTalk

My Achaemenid scale armour project (here) is progressing nicely, and soon I'll have to make a decision about backing material. I know of no evidence about whether leather, linen, or both were used, so the decision is up to taste and practicality. Thus, two questions for those of you who have made or worn scale armours:

Do you think that three layers of heavyweight linen should be enough for the backing? Its about 40 threads per inch, but I don't know how much it weighs per unit of area. The scales are 22 and 24 gague (0.030â€

Hello!

I have made a squamata scale armour, backed with linen. If i have to made it again, i will go for leather.

The scales are heavy, and it's easy to breaks, as happened to me.

Best luck!

Less breakages occur if you use linen canvas and sinew thread. (or even artificial sinew)

Salve,

There is an intact shoulder piece of scale armour from a Scythian grave at the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford. It has a thick leather backing onto which the scales are sewn. The Dura Europas scale fragments tend to be on a fabric backing (probably linen) with leather edging (see S. James - Excavations at Dura-Europas 1928-1937, VII).

Vale,

Celer.

I have made many scale armour pieces in my time, and have always used leather as the backing material. It is exactly as Cesar says and you need strength forget this silly idea about sweat or smells, if you were a soldier as long as I was you will know that they do smell a bit.

Linen was more common among agricultural cultures while leather was more common among nomadic and pastoral cultures. If you use linen then stay away from the crap sold at Ikea. Find the stuff that is used to make fine tablecloths - even this would be considered marginal quality in the past - and quilt a few layers together.

Not many reconstructions have been made to test different backings as to durability, comfort wearing, etc. As more Scale armor enters the market and more reenactors are using it more information will become known. I am betting that in just a few years you would get a lot more response to the backing question.

The Dura Europos scale pieces were on HEAVY canvas fabric- looking nearly like the kind of canvas sacks are made of, so it'd be very strong. The stitching was done likewise with very heavy thread- a couple of millimeters in diameter at least, and linen is the strongest natural fiber of its kind- and if it was good enough for REAL battle, clearly it'd be good enough for reenacting :wink:

I wouldn't go for multiple layers of thin fabric myself, I'd go for canvas. I used the same stuff Ade did to make a Lorica squamata last summer and it's quite tough and I'd think will never fail due to the fabric.

Interestingly a modern version of Scale armor exists called dragonskin.
It is glued between fabric layers to hold the scales in place. The US Army rejected it because the scales (actually round cremetic discs) moved around and created gaps in some circumstances. I wrote the company and suggested they use the Roman method and put holes in the discs and sew them down with Kevlar thread. I did not get an Email back so who knows if
they had already thought of it or weren't interested. If they had a a Roman reenactor on staff perhaps the Army would be wearing a modern Lorcia Squamata today!

Mine has a linen backing for the scales and then another layer of heavy canvas glued over the top. Problem is the shoulder section the linen has started to rot so I will need to redo, which will be in leather.


Ignore the hole made by the Ballista :lol: just shows the backing material lol: :lol:
Regards Brennivs

Hi all,

Thanks for the quick replies.

There was a find of Roman bronze scale armour at Carpow backed with one layer of coarse linen fabric, but it had very little overlap and I don't know how thick the cloth was. The legio XX site says that this was typical for Roman armour. Tutankhamun's hide scale armour was backed with six layers of thin linen and one layer of fine leather; the armflaps were just backed with the leather. But hide scales are much lighter than metal! Scale-reinforced tube-and-yoke armours were backed with whatever tube-and-yoke armours were made of.

Quote:Linen was more common among agricultural cultures while leather was more common among nomadic and pastoral cultures. If you use linen then stay away from the crap sold at Ikea. Find the stuff that is used to make fine tablecloths - even this would be considered marginal quality in the past - and quilt a few layers together.

I bought the cloth at a fabric store. It may be a 55% linen/45% cotton blend, which might weaken it (a family member picked it up on sale a while ago). The chief advantage of using it is that I already own it, whereas leather or better cloth will cost money

The Persians seem to have lived by a mix of farming and stockraising. Herodotus divides the Persians into nomadic and sedentary tribes. Strabo mentions Persians wearing linen garments (although wool and felt were probably more common), and clearly they had plenty of leather available. Add in the fact that a soldier might have bought armour at the places where he was stationed during his years of military service, which might have a different economy. If the armour were Scythian or Bactrian, say, the decision might be easier (leather!). But on the balance, I think that an armour made in Persis would probably have had a leather backing.

If I go with just leather, what weight/thickness would I need? Brian Price recommends 5-8 oz for backing coats-of-plates, but this armour will be a bit heavier.

I'll probably be using waxed 12 ply Irish linen thread. The edges of the armour will definitely be lined in leather.

Quote:I have made many scale armour pieces in my time, and have always used leather as the backing material. It is exactly as Cesar says and you need strength forget this silly idea about sweat or smells, if you were a soldier as long as I was you will know that they do smell a bit.

I'm more worried about the armour rusting with sweat soaking through the backing I reckon that any sort of backing will get pretty dirty and sweaty after a few wearings.

I think it is a situation where no matter what you use there will be sweating, and it is a fact of life that this will penertrate what ever material one might use. Where you mention rusting yes there will be a certain degree of tarnishing, this happens with both iron scales or bronze ones however one has to accept this. It becomes a situation of preventative maintanence at regular intervals, however a good quality goat or doe skin will give a better and I think stronger backing to the armour.

Right- staining is completely authentic and the super-polished look is completely wrong and shouldn't ever be desired. This is functional gear, not art :wink:

And it's not so much the fiber the fabric is made of that is the most important feature- yes linen is stronger than cotton, but it's the weight that matters. As I mentioned, the known original squamata artifacts are on very heavy canvas, not anything light. If the fabric you have isn't heavyweight canvas, it might not be a good choice at all. Just because you already have it is a dangerous reason- it's a LOT of work stitching on all those scales and it's something you really only want to do once- if your fabric is too weak and you're faced with holes and other troubles before too long, it definitely won't be worth the $10 or $20 better fabric might cost.

IMO (and experience) linen canvas is much better than leather.

For starters it 'breathes' whereas leather does not. Leather (especially goat) can stretch and get out of shape - linen canvas won't.

Linen canvas does not have to be treated regularly - leather does.

Linen canvas is lighter.

I believe I would opt for using hemp canvas over linen. The fibers are longer, and thus more duriable. Another fantastic feature of hemp fabric is its natural resistance to rot, and mildew. .