I've had a look through previous topics (as I'm sure this one must have come up) and was wondering what happened to the Legions Standards? or more to the point ~ if any of "The Eagles" had survived or were preserved for sometime after the Empire had disappeared. They were obviously symbols of great importance and held enormous significance ~ huge efforts after all where made to regain and preserve them even after a defeat on foreign soil such as when Germanicus was able to reclaim two of those from Varus' defeat in Germania years after the event.
It seems odd to me given (all) that still remains, that these would 'all' simply vanish. :?
Quote:It seems odd to me given (all) that still remains, that these would 'all' simply vanish. :?
Recovered eagles were kept in the Temple of Mars Ultor in Rome. That includes the eagles of the legions XVII, XVIII (or XIIX, as it is spelled on the Caelius monument), and XIX. I think XXI Rapax and VIIII Hispana were there too, as they were lost during wars that were eventually won by the Romans (Dacians, Parthians) - and I think that during the negotiations, the Romans would have demanded their standards back. Perhaps XXII Deiotoriana, but the Bar Kochba did not end with negotiations, as far as we know.
I would not be surprised if someone, knowing how important they were, removed them and buried them somewhere. It also happened to the regalia of Maxentius. So keep on digging, Romans; an additional metro line or two may be useful. :wink:
(Note: of course, everybody knows that VIIII Hispana was not defeated by the Parthians, but had already
disappeared in Scotland...)
Thanks Jona, Indeed it would be great to 'recover' the Eagles for the last time!
Quote:Andrew:28vyaubu Wrote:It seems odd to me given (all) that still remains, that these would 'all' simply vanish. :?
Recovered eagles were kept in the Temple of Mars Ultor in Rome. That includes the eagles of the legions XVII, XVIII (or XIIX, as it is spelled on the Caelius monument), and XIX. I think XXI Rapax and VIIII Hispana were there too, as they were lost during wars that were eventually won by the Romans (Dacians, Parthians) - and I think that during the negotiations, the Romans would have demanded their standards back. Perhaps XXII Deiotoriana, but the Bar Kochba did not end with negotiations, as far as we know.
I would not be surprised if someone, knowing how important they were, removed them and buried them somewhere. It also happened to the regalia of Maxentius. So keep on digging, Romans; an additional metro line or two may be useful. :wink:
(Note: of course, everybody knows that VIIII Hispana was not defeated by the Parthians, but had already disappeared in Scotland...)
Oi! That's quite a nice story!
Quote:They were obviously symbols of great importance and held enormous significance
OTOH, they would have lost their religious significance when the Empire became Christian. And I wonder if the surviving Legions would have recalled such victories and defeats from days of old. For that matter, would each legion have even remembered its origins ? I doubt it but anything is possible.
Quote:I would not be surprised if someone, knowing how important they were, removed them and buried them somewhere.
Or they were carried off by Alaric, Geiseric, or Belisarius.
Quote:It also happened to the regalia of Maxentius.
Good point !
In case anyone hasn't read about it 
Yes, never stop digging
~Theo
Ahh, it's on display is it! And dated! Cool! I haveto get back there to see the rest of the things I missed! What about the two military standards mentioned?
Did they ever recover all of the eagles lost in the teutoburg forest???I think they recaptured at least one when they took Arminius's wife.id say that they would have searched high and low to salvage some pride from their greatest defeat.
I think they retrieved 2 of them. Germanicus managed to anyway!
Quote:Did they ever recover all of the eagles lost in the teutoburg forest???
Tacitus mentions two eagles recovered, Cassius Dio the third (in 40/41).
Trivia for the day:
For those who are unaware, the epithet of the War-God Mars ( Mars Ultor) translates as 'Mars the Avenger', and the Tropaeum (Trophy) at Adamklissi was also dedicated to 'Mars Ultor'.....
Good old Germanicus ~ it does make you wonder what would have happened if he'd not been recalled after his successes, and had instead been encouraged to conquer the rest of Germania ~ one wonders even if he may have eventually been able to subdue Magna Germania in the same way Caesar had done with Gaul?
As far as the lost Eagles go, the fact that two/possibly all three 'where' eventually recovered from the Teutoburg forest disaster demonstrates that even Romes enemies didn't feel inclined to melt down their most precious spoils of war, this shows a will to preserve them by those who must have despised them the most ...so it does (still) beg the question where are they now?
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Quote:Good old Germanicus ~ it does make you wonder what would have happened if he'd not been recalled after his successes, and had instead been encouraged to conquer the rest of Germania ~ one wonders even if he may have eventually been able to subdue Magna Germania in the same way Caesar had done with Gaul?
I think he would have failed. Gaul belonged to the La Tene culture, which had hill forts; the Germans had not. They lived in small villages, all over the country. This does not mean that they were backward, but that Rome's attacks could not be concentrated. The Roman armies needed a target, and an opponent that saw the benefit of living in a great settlement. Where a target was missing -Caledonia, Germania- the Romans were unsuccessful.
A strategy that might have worked, was to have merchants go into Germania and sell their stuff on one site. Next year, visit that site again. And again. And again. Buy German products, only on that site. Within a generation, that site would have started to grow. The local leaders would have taken his residence over there. Make sure that the Germans get acquianted to this, that they start to think they can not live without it. Once a hierarchy has grown, you have your target.
In other ways: those bloody savages were to barbarous, so first civilize them, so that they know how to be defeated properly.
:lol: ha ha Indeed, that's interesting ~ the Romans you would have thought must have been intimidated by 'the shear size of this enormous & inhospitable land mass also, ( in a similar way that the advancing German army did as it advanced into Russia during the second world war ) - reason enough that Augustus would have ushered his 'age of moderation' & designate the Rhine as it's natural border?
Quote:]Where a target was missing -Caledonia, Germania- the Romans were unsuccessful.
Interesting, I suspect the Late Roman army could have pulled it off if not for the constant civil wars and unprofitability of conquering those places.
Anyway, how about Northern Spain and Illyicum ? Weren't targets also scarce there as well ?
~Theo
Quote:Anyway, how about Northern Spain and Illyicum ? Weren't targets also scarce there as well ?
I don't know Illyricum, but the Iberian Peninsula was more advanced than our sources are willing to admit. Simon Keay has written nicely about it the
Roman Conquest of Spain (somewhere in the early 1990's). There used to be a time when I could also refer to Spanish publications, because my MA thesis was a comparison of the Romanization and Arabization of Spain; but I've lost my files and the print...
Quote:reason enough that Augustus would have ushered his 'age of moderation' & designate the Rhine as it's natural border?
Actually, it was Tiberius who convinced Augustus to leave Germany alone. Augustus grudgingly admitted that this was a wise policy, and later generations (e.g., Tacitus) believed that it was Tiberius who was following Augustus' precepts. If modern historians have been fooled as well, it's because they ignored authors like Paterculus and Dio.