RomanArmyTalk

At the moment I'm reading a novel "The rise and fall of the sacred band of Thebes".
I am wondering what their fighting techniques were. At first they were dispersed along the ranks, probably fighting as front rankers ? Later Pelopidas moulted them into a single elite unit. They were elite shock infantry so i imagine they were heavily armored. But wat was their place on the battlefield (against the Spartans they fought on the left wing).
Were they the front rankers of the Theban contingent of the Boeotian army. Or did they really fought in 50 ranks deep together ? I can't imagine that because manny of them were "out of the fighting" in 50 ranks deep and they were only 300-strong

kind regards

Against the Spatans they must have formed a separate unit in the far left. You're right,placing them in 50 ranks deep was a waist of their power. They could have formed the left wing with 8,6,12,or 16 deep and the rest would be regularly hoplites(some say even unarmoured citizens) behind them. Speculation this is on my part.
Khaire
Giannis

300 is a small number.
Among them there were lads from exteremely wealthy families who could afford to know horshmanship and other weapon skills.
But we have no real reference that elements of the Hieros Lochos were used as raiding detachments.

Most probably they were a crack hoplite unit capable of performig complex manuvers like the Spartans.

Plutrach in "Pelopidas" mentions their first success against Spartans in Tegyra where they fought as hoplites.

Epameinondas at Leuktra used them in the exterme left where their ability for complex mauver and morale was crucial in hindering Cleombrotus decisions.

Kind regards

Hoplites: definitely hoplites. Trained (and one suspects armed) by the state and, seemingly, a permanent battalion.

Quote:Plut. Pel. 18.5:

It is said, moreover, that the band was never beaten, until the battle of Chaeroneia; and when, after the battle, Philip was surveying the dead, and stopped at the place where the three hundred were lying, all where they had faced the long spears of his phalanx, with their armour, bodies piled one upon another, he was amazed, and on learning that this was the band of lovers and beloved, burst into tears and said: "Perish miserably they who think that these men did or suffered aught disgraceful."

Quote:Plutarch Pelopidas 18 The sacred band, we are told, was first formed by Gorgidas, of three hundred chosen men, to whom the city furnished exercise and maintenance, and who encamped in the Cadmeia; for which reason, too, they were called the city band; for citadels in those days were properly called cities. But some say that this band was composed of lovers and beloved........Gorgidas, then, by distributing this sacred band among the front ranks of the whole phalanx of men-at‑arms, made the high excellence of the men inconspicuous, and did not direct their strength upon a common object, since it was dissipated and blended with that of a large body of inferior troops; but Pelopidas, after their valour had shone out at Tegyra, where they fought by themselves and about his own person, never afterwards divided or scattered them, but, treating them as a unit, put them into the forefront of the greatest conflicts.

So, Hoplites, full-time professionals paid and maintained by the State - originally used scattered among the front ranks of the Phalanx as a 'stiffening' ( i.e. one every 3 or 4 Hoplites in a conventional phalanx, the whole front rank if formed 25 or more deep....)
Later, used as a united unit - an elite........

Well not always for stiffening.
In the first year of the Pelloponisian War the Theban logadae (hieros lochos) sneacked night into Platea to force constitutional change and put the city into alliance with Thebes. Down came and the Plateans counterattacked while their women threw roof tiles from the tops of the houses. The unit was wiped out. Perhaps never reconstituted because of their ignominus end.

The tough times of the mid 4th century and Pelopidas succes in Tegyra certainly helpt to reconcile the Thebans with the idea fo reforming the elite hoplites again.

Kind regars

Stefanos wrote:-

Quote:In the first year of the Pelloponisian War the Theban logadae (hieros lochos) sneacked night into Platea to force constitutional change and put the city into alliance with Thebes. Down came and the Plateans counterattacked while their women threw roof tiles from the tops of the houses. The unit was wiped out. Perhaps never reconstituted because of their ignominus end.

Why do you think this ? As far as I know, Plutarch states that the 'Hieros Lochos'( lit: Holy Company/Sacred Band) was founded by Gorgidas ( see above quote), around 379 BC, inspired by Plato's reference to the strength of bonds between lovers in the Symposion written some time after 385 BC, as recounted by Pammenes......so they did not exist as early as 431 BC, if Plutarch is correct.

Furthermore the Theban troops who take Plataea, that Thucydides refers to, number 300 it is true, but he calls them simply "the advance party" ( with a main body following)....there is no reference to 'Sacred Band', so do you know of some other reference to 'Hieros Lochos' prior to 379 BC, which would make Plutarch's statement erroneous? ?

Bodies of 300 on special missions seem to frequently occur also ( c.f. Leonidas 'advance party' and the many other references to Spartan bodies of 300 who are not the Hippeis/Royal Guard)

.........'wiped out' is also a little brief in discussing their fate. The 'advance party' are admitted by Plataean sympathisers in the dead of night, and await the main force. The Plataeans, once they recover from their surprise, attack them and shut them in the city. They are not wiped out initially - a few fall in battle , some escape over the walls while others die in falls attempting to do so. The largest group rush into a building abutting the wall, thinking it a Gatehouse and become trapped, and along with various small groups and individuals, are taken prisoner, amounting to over 180 in all. The main body having set out from Thebes eight miles away are delayed by rain and the swollen River Asopus, and arrive too late.
The Plataeans withdraw inside their walls over the next day or two and the Thebans withdraw, having failed to secure hostages to ransom the prisoners with.
As a punishment for their treacherous attack in Peace time, the Plataeans put the impious Thebans to death.....
Paltaea's strategic importance was that it stood on Mount Cithaeron and dominated the road south from Boeotia to the Peloponnese and Corinth, and Thebes launched this treacherous attack because the Plataeans were traditional allies of Athens, and largely anti-Theban.
When the Persians landed in Attica in 490, the full Plataean levy, numbering about 1,000 men, came to the aid of Athens and fought at Marathon. In 479, Greek forces under Pausanias defeated the invading Persian army of Mardonius on the slopes of Cithaeron below Plataea, decisively crushing Persian ambitions on the Greek mainland. Thereafter the Plataeans offered sacrifice annually to Zeus the Liberator in honour of the Greek dead, and Plataea was declared inviolable by Pausanias, the Spartan King. Hence the impiety of the Theban attackers. Nonetheless, the city was attacked by Thebans as related above(431), then by Spartans (429), who finally razed it in 427. Thebes occupied the site until 387, then destroyed it again in 373.
Athens harboured the survivors until the Macedonian kings Philip II and Alexander III the Great rebuilt Plataea after 338 as a symbol of Greek courage in resisting Persia.( and Thebes in turn was razed by Alexander)....

Sacred Band of Thebes: Elite hoplite corps, 300 strong, supposedly made up of 150 pairs of lovers; fought as a unit on the allied Greek right at the Battle of Chaironeia and was destroyed to the last man by Philip II of Macedon (accompanied, presumably, by his precocious son Alexander). The Sacred Band was never re-formed thereafter.

Were they destroyed "to the last man" at Plataea? I had thought a few survived.

It is mentioned that 254 of the 300 died at the battlefield. I presume the rest was wounded and taken prisoner. Te whole unit held their ground until they were overhwelmed

Michael wrote:

Quote:Were they destroyed "to the last man" at Plataea? I had thought a few survived.

...the 'Hieros Lochos'/sacred band did not fight at Plataea ( see above) and there were survivors who escaped from the Theban Advance Party who did......( see above)

Quote:It is mentioned that 254 of the 300 died at the battlefield. I presume the rest was wounded and taken prisoner. Te whole unit held their ground until they were overhwelmed

Yes. The Theban burial was excavated - there were not 300 skeletons only 254; laid out in seven rows. As for the Macedonians, though I have the dig results in this house somewhere, I cannot lay hands on the numbers.

I'd bet my left one that they were done in an infantry attack. And, if they were first "broken" by Alexander, he was not on horseback.

Hey.Paralus,do you have an article or something about the Theban-or anyone's- grave and the excavation? I didn't knwo they found them and they diged them all.
And someone have anything for Marathon's grave. i know they found some(or all)sceletons from there,too.
Khaire
Giannis

Somewhere in the Congressional Library of Paralus there is that information. Where is the bloody question. I purchase material from JSTOR and not all is that easily found (the old computer crapped itself some years ago - never rely on soft copy) as it may well have been "put away" by Lady Paralus: Salaminia.

Soteriades excavated the Macedonian mound. That this identification is correct is a reasonable supposition due to the sarisa heads within the mound. The 254 skeletons under the Lion Monument are, to this day, still somewhat controversial. Why transport them accross the field for burial? Because Chaeronea is the more appropriate place goes the reasoning. Why leave the Macedonians where they were then? God knows - although Alexander did similar at Granicus. It does seem the more likely that those at the monument are the Thebans even though Boeotia was the "Poland" of ancient Greece and Chaeronea one of its favourite killing grounds.

The discussion of the Sacred Band excavations are in one of the tomes that take up more space in this house than do people. Should I find it i will post on it.

Quote:Michael wrote:

Quote:Were they destroyed "to the last man" at Plataea? I had thought a few survived.

...the 'Hieros Lochos'/sacred band did not fight at Plataea ( see above) and there were survivors who escaped from the Theban Advance Party who did......( see above)

GAH... I meant Chaeronea of course. :oops: