RomanArmyTalk

I try to make some reconstruction of Geiserich's army and I want to ask you about your opinion on equipment of his warrior.
So, from my information I made up this list of items, which can have barbarian who sack Rome:

- Spangenhelm, probably Baldenheim type
- round shield with "spiky" boss
- long sword
- scale/lamellar armour, perhaps mail (but in my opinion mail is over-used in reenactment) , perhaps no armour at all

Can there be any influence of north african enviroment or roman tradition on his equipment?

Quote:Can there be any influence of north african enviroment or roman tradition on his equipment?

Remember your warrior did not come just from across the Rhenus, but he and his parents, maybe even his grandparents, had been within the Roman Empire (Gaul, then long in Spain) for decades? He would have had many Roman influences, since his group had been fighting for the Romans and against them during that time, and probably he was equipped by the Roman armouries at least once, but all adjustments would have been come from Roman/Hispanic territory. And all Geiseric did afterwards was live on, off and from Roman territories, becoming Romanised fast.

Most groups (not to mention documentary makers!) make the mistake of thinking that Germanic groups somehow kept their old equipment and stuff for decades...

Therefore, a Roman helmet if any, if a spangenhelm, not a Baldenheim.
If armour (and that became scarce fast!), a hamata, or a squamata. Lamellar? Well, if travelling with Alan cavalry, otherwise it's a bit alien for these parts.
Long sword - spatha.
Spiky shield boss? Well why not, a pointed would also do fine I'd say.

If you're going for the 'Germanic' look, your guy is not a soldier of Geiseric.

well, in fact you have spoken my ideas, which I have not express clearly. I always try to portrait these "barbarian" as very romanised, not like these classical "savages in furs"

so, which helmet? Intercisa? Or something other? I suppose that Geiseric's troops could be quite rich, well, they were raiders and their african homeland was quite rich too?

Hi Pavel,

Good for you! No, not furs, but I've seen many documentaries that suppose themselves to be 'historically correct', and still show all kind of Eastern and Northern arms & armour on the Vandals in Africa!

Quote:I suppose that Geiseric's troops could be quite rich, well, they were raiders and their african homeland was quite rich too?

Well, they were, they bled the region dry, raided along the coasts and then were paid not to do it - a win-win situation. Your warrior could be quite rich.

Here's a Vandal landowner:
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&C ... vandal.jpg

Cool. I know that picture, but just in black and white copy. Thanks!

But, back to helmet - some kind of late roman ridge helmet would be appropiate? I'm not very aware what kind romans used un 5th century.

I would say yes for a baldenheim type, such spangenhelms were probably used by both romans and barbarians in the Vth and VIth centuries, and there is no archeological evidence for use of ridge helmets after the beginning of the Vth century, except for Britain and Scandinavia. You can also opt for a simpler 'bowl' helmet with several riveted parts.

Quote:I would say yes for a baldenheim type, such spangenhelms were probably used by both romans and barbarians in the Vth and VIth centuries, and there is no archeological evidence for use of ridge helmets after the beginning of the Vth century, except for Britain and Scandinavia. You can also opt for a simpler 'bowl' helmet with several riveted parts.

Yes, that simple helmet would also be a possibility.
As to the spangenhelm, I agree that it is possible and even likely that this type became the dominant type of helmet in the West during the 5th c.

However, we have no information when ridge helmets were phased out. Like Ben says, the remained in use in Britain and Scandinavia, and I have no doubt that the remained in use with the Roman army as long as fabricae continued to produce helmets (which unfortunately is unknown). Then again, we also have to keep in mind that armour (including helmets) became more and more a luxury object when the 5th c. wore on. But how far that happened among the Vandals when compared to, say, the Frank I don't know.

A Baldenheim helmet is later rather than early 5th c., so if we envision Vandals roaming through Gaul (early 5th c.), Spain (early/mid-5th c.) and finally Africa (mid/late 5th c.), I have trouble seeing them equipped with such helmets. Sure, they could have made it down to Africa later, or with the Eastern Roman army that fought and lost several battles against Geiseric, sure.

If the choice would be between a berkasovo ridge and a Baldenheim spangen, I could not begin to guess. An Intercisa or a simple spangen would be far more probable, I think.

My lessons of economy turned to be very boring this time, so ive drawn a little...
so this is my little impression of Geiseric´s raiding party:
(forgive bad quality, i need to find better scanner... and learn to draw better :oops: :twisted: )

Vandals AD 455

Quote:My lessons of economy turned to be very boring this time, so ive drawn a little...
so this is my little impression of Geiseric´s raiding party:
(forgive bad quality, i need to find better scanner... and learn to draw better :oops: :twisted: )
Vandals AD 455

Very good! I'd add an archer (handy at sea ánd land) but these look OK to me! :wink:

Hello, sorry for reviving this topic, but I need to ask:

I have read that we have some finding of migration period spangenhelms from North Africa... but I cannot find more informations.

Is it really truth? If it is :wink: does any of you have some information about them or even photo? thanks

Pavel,

Are you referring to the Der El Medineh and Leiden spangenhelms from Egypt ?

If so, the former can be found on this website. Vortigern posted the link on another thread.

And you can see drawings of the Leiden spangenhelm in the Osprey book "Late Roman Infantryman"

I'm not sure if these two helmets from Africa count as being from the migration period but they were certainly used by 3rd century AD.

By the way, I have a general question about Vandal warriors / armies :

• Did they have infantrymen ? Or were their warriors primarily (all ?) cavalry and archers ? A book I have says their armies were usually 70% unarmored cavalry, up to 10% archers, and 5% partly armored cavalry (by the late 4th century). It doesn't say what kind of troops made up the remaining percentage.

It seems baffling to me that such a force could successfully penetrate so far into the Empire, fighting against Visigothic and Roman infantry :?

~Theo

thanks, but leiden and dar el medineh are too early for my use.

Pavel,

Yes, they are too early for a 4th century impression.

As Agraes has already suggested, your best choice is probably a simple construction like the one from this color plate (extreme right).

The helmet's description only says that it's from southern France, dated to the late 4th century /early 5th C..

Otherwise, you're probably better off with a ridge helmet, IMO.

~Theo

Actually the Der El Medineh and Leiden helmets were badly dated, first beeing found in a pit and the other beeing a stolen piece. So common theory is that they are late 3rd/early 4th century helmets, but some specialists such as Damien Glad (archeologist, author of a soon to be published new classification of helmets in the east of the Roman empire and also member of the Herculiani) have opted for a late Vth/early VIth century date.

Theo: Thank you, I know all of these illustrations from Osprey.

Agraes: Thank you for the info. It will be very interesting to see this new classification.

The point is that I have read article about spangenhelms of baldenheim type, in which was written that we have found almost 40 pieces of this type all around europe and even from North Africa. So... this is what I´m looking for - if it exists - baldenheim spangenhelm from north africa.