RomanArmyTalk

Hi All

I'm a beginner here in two respects I guess.

First, I'm a forum gumby (at 57 years of age! What an admission. My 22 year old son is virtually the godfather of the antipodean internet!)

And, second, I'm starting with a tirone's knowledge of helmets, so please spare the vine rod if I ask embarrassing questions at first.

I'm trying to figure out why I can't find (online) museum or replica photos of Trajanic Imperial Gallic helmets with retrofitted (or otherwise) reinforcing crossbars.

I found a Peter Connolly illustration of a retrofitted Gallic H and a photo of what I'm assuming is a (Gallic G) conversion, both on the Legio VI Victrix site ( http://www.legionsix.org/helmet.htm ). That, however, seems to be the sum total and nothing suggesting Gallics manufactured with crossbars.

The eyebrow ridges certainly wouldn't have made fitting the crossbars easy - hence the many reinforced Italics. Maybe the ridges were good enough against the falx? (Hmm). Anyhow, if anyone shed any light on this for me please that would be most appreciated.

Many thanks

Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)

That's because only one has ever been published! That is the Berzobis helmet. The one that PC has illustrated. The other known cross-bar types are typically Italic in their shape, and would appear to have had the bars fitted as part of their original construction rather than were retro-fitted to the existing helmet.

Send me a PM (private message) and I'll be glad to send you some photo's of the helmets.

Theilenhofen/Berzobis/Hebron etc.

The 'Berzobis' helmet is the one you refer to illustrated by PC. The original cheek pieces did not survive just the retro-fitted Gallic type bowl. hard to classify what 'Robinson' type is is from the conserved remains though. Looks most like an E to me.

Theilenhofen Helmet..


http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

Reconstruction can be seen here..
http://w10.eleven2.com/~joorthuy/rat/vi ... 9b92cf94f1

Hebron Helmet
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/


Deepeeka do a reconstruction of this one.

Berzobis Helmet

This has the sweeping eyebrows of types C D E and F. Rather a flat neck guard, and unusually an 'L' section brow guard. It has obviously had any extant crest suppport fittings removed and it looks to originally had an appliqué on the neck guard (judging by the holes) probably for the carrying handle.

Welcome aboard Howard.

The bars don't need to be perfectly flush with the bowl, so I wouldn't worry about the eyebrow ridges. As you saw on the Connolly example and Peronis's photo, there is an absolute definite example, quite likely a field-modification.
http://www.legionsix.org/cross-braced%2 ... 20helm.jpg

David Sims has researched the use of the falx and helmet reinforcements (Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies 12/13 - JRMES 12/13 for short). It's doubtful an unmodified Gallic could withstand the force of a falx, as Sims points out his tests show that even a reinforced helmet could still result in a broken neck, the falx able to impart impact energy of up to 316 joules if wielded by a very practiced hand, but most commonly 171 joules maximum in his own tests.

But this suggests that not reinforcing your Gallic would be unwise as they could reduce the depth of impact by a third.

BTW there is a fragment of what is thought to be another helmet of the Hebron Italic G type from Vindolanda. I have a photo, but I cannot post it here for Copyright reasons.

But I can say that it is slightly different in that the crescent moon appliqués are more rounded at their ends and face in the same direction rather than in a radial pattern around the crown of the helmet bowl.

you may want to add the Brigetio helmet

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

which is very similar to the Theilenhofen helmet

and the Wiesbaden helmet

which combines the moon appliques of the Hebron helmet (and therefore presumably also the crossed reinforcements) with a set of eyes at the front

to the list.

I have not heard of the helmet fragment from Vindolanda before, may I ask whether it has been published?

Doh! How could I have forgotten the Brigetio monstrosity!?? :oops: :oops:

Thanks Jens

Quote:and the Wiesbaden helmet

Which helmet is this? The Gallic k? do we have good photos?

AFAIK the crescent applique covers a repair to the iron bowl and was not purely decorative as on the Hebron example.

You don't need to have anyone make a copy of that thing......I feel ill! :oops:

I think I saw the helmet fragment when I was there, but was more taken by the gold medal and the new fragment of glass to fit with the first find of the gladiator glass, and it is not too clear. Anyway, I cannot see it in the 2005-6 publication....knew I should have bought the other book as well!

The helmet is depicted in Robinson in its unrestored state where cannot see very much of its fittings.

There are good pictures of the restored helmet in "Die Römer in Wiesbaden" and I may be able to scan them in the course of this week. I cannot publish them here, I think, but I could send you a pic by email.

The helmet was on display in a Wiesbaden Museum which I understand will be closed for rebuilding for the next years so there is little chance to get pics for the database unless somebody has a contact at the Museum.

Referring back to the Vindolana fragment, do you have a source for information on that?

The Vindolanda piece hasn't been published yet as far as I know.

The helmet from Weisbaden is the one HRR classified as a Gallic K?

Perhaps we could exchange photos Weisbaden for Vindolanda?! :wink:

Peroni,

Show me yours and I'll show you mine
javascript:emoticon(':wink:')

As I could not find out how to attach photo to private messages on romanarmy.com, I sent you an email with the scans I have of the Wiesbaden helmet to your armamentaria address. I hope this is ok.

The pictures are from Walter Czysz, Wiesbaden in der Römerzeit. I apologize for the quality but I was not able to make better scans.

This is in fact the helmet classified by HRR as Imperial Gallic K.

According to the author the helmet was found in the area of the Wiesbaden Roman camp apparently with no context allowing for a dating. The author dates the helmet to the reign of Domitian but this is based only on the following arguments: Weisenau helmet generally date the the first and early second century and he believes that the damage on the top was actual battle damage. The only conflicts known in that period of time were the Batavian revolt and the Germanic wars of Domitian. I have read the suggestion that the surviving lunar ornament on the top of the helmet may indicate that it bore cross reinforcements similar to the Hebron type. I am not sure where I read that (HRR?).

The photos in the book do not show any rivet holes in the right places but they are not of sufficient quality to make a final determination on this.

In case it is not clear from the scans, there are rivets inserted into the middle of the eyebrow ornaments which apparently represent eyes. The author states that the helmet is iron with traces of tinning. You can see that parts of bronze edge piping remain on the neck guard which may indicate that in fact it may have been covered with sheet metal similar to other helmets.

Quote:In case it is not clear from the scans, there are rivets inserted into the middle of the eyebrow ornaments which apparently represent eyes. The author states that the helmet is iron with traces of tinning.

I'm looking at it in Robinson. If you take a vertical line down from the lunar crescent, and below the faint outline of the eyebrow there is a flattish grey circular spot larger than the other 'bumps'. Is that where the eye rivet was?

Some of you will know my feelings on the Gallic eyebrows seeming very lonely without the eyes :wink: :wink:

I do not have Robinson at hand here but the structure can be described as follows:

The lower line of the eyebrow is more or less flat whereas the upper line swings upwards then downwards and then upwards again (in contrast to most other helmets the eyebrow then takes a final additional downward turn).

In the roughly oval space created by the upward and downward swing of the upper part of the eyebrow (i.e. exactly where you would expect the eye) there is a raised area of lenticular, i.e. eye-like shape. In the middle of that area there is a rivet (apparently iron, not bronze) which forms the iris of the eye.

I hope this makes sense. If you can provide me with an email address I can send you the scans.

Hi again

Now that is what I call service! I've just got home and I find next week's lesson resources done for me. No, seriously, I'm absolutely delighted (being a teacher) that just asking a question brings this knowledge and consideration together AND that it goes on.

To those I need to get back to I beg patience as I fumble into familiarity with the system. I will get a photo of me/symbol for me up at some stage. For the left margin, my gender is male and I have to figure how to substitute my day name for that mysterious green dot.

Until next time, many (!!!) thanks

Spurius Papirius Cursor (Howard Russell)

Quote:In the roughly oval space created by the upward and downward swing of the upper part of the eyebrow (i.e. exactly where you would expect the eye) there is a raised area of lenticular, i.e. eye-like shape. In the middle of that area there is a rivet (apparently iron, not bronze) which forms the iris of the eye.

HOLY SCHMOLEY!!!!! I SEE IT!!!! The circular area I was talking about is the pupil, but I couldn't see the wood for the trees and missed the now obvious eye shape.

Amazing, thanks!!!!!

When we were designing and trying to figure out the Krefeld Italic D we were surprised by the raised ridge in the brass eye shape, mimicking an eyebrow on an Italic. But this beats that by a mile D

It's a big eye on the Galic-K. Massive.

Jens, I've ordered the Wiesbaden book from antikmakler.de. Thanks for pointing it out.

One thought that might add to any opinion it bore crossbars is that it seems to be absent of any type of suggestion of crest holder or fittings. Not proof by any means given I can think of a bronze Gallic without these, and that was also a later Gallic. HRR mentions, though, that as far as can be judged there were no crossbars, I assume due to the bad corrosion which might disguise rivet holes? But he did see it as a transitional type between the Gallic-J and the Italic-G.

Out of interest, can someone look in Robinson and peer intently at photo 145 of the Gallic-J from Brigetio on page 60? I might be seeing things and it's very faint, but does that have a slight hint of small eyes under the eyebrows as well, snuggled in under the lower arches? I'd just dismiss it as corrosion if it wasn't for the perfect symmetry either side.