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Dear fellow RATs,
Help needed!

Osprey 89 Byzantine Armies 886-1118 contains a picture - p. 15 - of a panel depicting the saints Theodore, George and Demetrius, dated to the early 12th century.

I've not been able to find where the author got it from, and when I wrote he replied he had no idea. Does anyone know where this panel comes from? I would be most obliged.
Hi Eduard, I had a look at the Osprey publication you mentioned and the only source I could find was from this address below with an explanation saying these images were made of steatite or soapstone

http://protostrator.blogspot.com.au/2013...ts-in.html

Quote:An interesting category of sculpture artwork are the icons made of steatite, commonly known as "soapstone". They are mainly works of the 10th to 13th century (mainly the komnenian 11th-12th) and the majority of them depicts military saints.
It is probable that many of them belonged to officers and some were used as standards during litanies or battles.
The saints are depicted in detail, armed with arms of their time. This is really useful for the study of the byzantine military, since most of byzantine works of art tend to represent military saints with a more "antique" or "classical" style of arms and armor.
For those who don't have access to Osprey book here is pic below

[attachment=6949]5Steatiteiconwith3militarysaintsStsTheodoreStartelatesGeorgeDemetriosKhersonesos13th-14thcenturyAD.jpg[/attachment]

Below is one of St Demetrius by himself. Holes suggest it was attached to a bookcover or something.

[attachment=6948]1st-demetrius-steatite-1000-2_2013-04-09.jpg[/attachment]
Hope this helps
Regards
Michael Kerr
Thanks Michael, its from Cherson, now I am getting somewhere. I will look up his sources, see if there is more information about the icon in there.
Edouard:

that carving of three saints is in the Hermitage Museum. See Agnes Bank, Byzantine Art in the Collections of Soviet Museums.

Timothy
Found it Timothy. Odd, it says Alisa Vladimirovna Bank is the editor.
Another question. Is there some good reason to assume that the kremasmata shown on the saint in the middle are not simply pteruges? Nor his protection for the upper arm, and that of the saint on the left? I believe it is often seen as a quilted defense or splints.
Quote:Another question. Is there some good reason to assume that the kremasmata shown on the saint in the middle are not simply pteruges? Nor his protection for the upper arm, and that of the saint on the left? I believe it is often seen as a quilted defense or splints.

On some depictions of kremasmata, and of the upper-arm defences, there are rivet heads, which would suggest that leather is probably not being used, as leather can be stitched. Also there is the artistic bias of the Byzantines, they delighted in showing folds in textiles, virtually all depictions of textiles are shown elaborately folded; the cloaks of horsemen almost universally are shown billowing behind them in an exaggerated manner. I think that if the separate strips of leather pteruges were being depicted then the artists would have been unable to restrain themselves from showing some evidence of this - slightly overlapping strips, or a general unevenness. On the contrary, all depictions of kremasmata seem to show them as being in even ranks, no suggestion of separateness of strips is ever shown.
I hope this is in the right section so here you go. Does anyone know of the recent archaeological discovery in Armenia of church dedicated to Emperor Constans II victories in the Transcaucasus region?
Great response, thanks..... :?: .
It is sad that this thread is not really busy... Sad
There's a group on FB which has quite heated debates. I guess most members are not on RAT or unwilling to enter in a debate.
For debates on actual equipment, not just "duh, Rome did not fall in 476" - "yes it did, bro", check out

https://www.facebook.com/groups/514199188652805/
Márk we do debate on actual equipment in our group sometimes although our page is not specifically focused on warfare and yes-Rome(state)did not fall in 476 :wink:

Other FB groups of interrest(maybe you know it I dont know): https://www.facebook.com/byzantinemilita...ry?fref=ts


: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Late-Roma...34?fref=ts
Hi all!

Leo Wise wrotes about charzania. Dennis in his translation did not explain the meaning of it, maybe somebody here. The text is from: About Training for the Cavalry and the Infantry:

10. Divide the army in two parts, then have them come together in a mock battle, the lances and, likewise, the arrows without points or, as we said, with staffs instead of swords. Or instead of lances distribute staves or reeds. If the ground on which they are drilling has clods of earth, order them to throw these at each other in practicing for battle. At times let them make use of what are called charzania (χαρζάνια) or similar items in their battles. Point out to the men steep hills and order them to ascend them on the run and seize them. Of course, you will have other soldiers in position on top of those hills.

So what is the charzania? A kind of mail or protector?

My next question is the kalpa from Const. VII:

22. Another maneuver. With the troops marching in close formation, particularly after they have closed in tightly from the flanks, as they come within range of the <enemy> archers, and the command is given: "Strike.” The dekarchs and pentarchs then lean forward, cover their heads and part of their horses’ neck with their shields, hold their lances at shoulder height and, protected by their shields, they advance in good order, not too fast but at a canter, a measured gait, the so-called kalpa (κάλπα), so that the impetus of their charge might not break up their ranks before coming to blows with the enemy, a very risky action. All the archers to the rear are then to open fire.

Any further information over that it was a measured gait?

Thnaks!
pollux12
As far as I can tell, a χαρζάνι is some kind of stick or bar. Could it be something like the Roman vitis?
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