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Quote:That's funny :lol: I remember reading about this in Graham Sumner's "RMC (3)" and I believe these harnesses were only worn by infantry if I remember correctly.

Not that I'm aware of. Certainly the Sassanid representations show horsemen wearing them. Whether the same applies to Byzantine examples, I don't know. After all, who's to say whether a man in armour on foot is an infantryman or a dismounted cavalryman? The great majority of ikons of military saints, for example, show them standing - but I think we can safely assume, both by their saintly status and thequality of their armour, that they're supposed to be cavalry.

Quote:Egfroth, do you believe the plates in the Verona silver platebare a strong enough resemblance to these plates from Wisby or only a passing one?

[Image: osehnc10201.JPG]

~Theo

Yes, I think they look quite a lot like them. But if you wanted to duplicate the look, I guess you'd have to have your plates facing opposite ways in alternating rows, to reproduce those wavy lines you see in the armour on the plate.

Could look really cool, and I don't think I've ever seen it done.
Quote:I've read scholarly opinion that the helmets, at least, are fanciful, based upon clasical models.
I assumed the latest opinion was that these are helmet covers, with the metal sometimes just being seen underneath.
I'd agree with that, but as I understand it, it's the helmet shape that's considered fanciful.

Dunno why, except that none have been found. It's a perfectly workable shape - as 16th century burgeonets demonstrated.
Quote:That's really interesting. Where on Crete is the harbour? Do they have any more information about the ship?

It is on the tiny island NTIA directly opposite Herakleion (Named Chandax at the time). Sorry no info on the ship. Is a fresh find and documentation has not circulated widely. Probably will be displayed in Maritime Museum in Crete after restoration I guess.

Kind regards
For an alternative re-construction of Byzantine lammelar see: [url:vmrskaxc]http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/lamellar/lamellar.html[/url]

You will find there are Byzantine re-enactment groups in Poland, France and the UK but none in Greece. Varangians are more common with a few groups in Poland, a couple in Germany and heaps in Russia. Lithuania has one too I believe. There was a group called Skholai kai Tagmata in Germany but I think their web page is dead ...would have loved to chat with those guys.
Quote:Yes, I think they look quite a lot like them. But if you wanted to duplicate the look, I guess you'd have to have your plates facing opposite ways in alternating rows, to reproduce those wavy lines you see in the armour on the plate.

Could look really cool, and I don't think I've ever seen it done.

Thanks for your input, Steven. I may start an attempt to make one very soon. I'm thinking of using copper wire that's 5-ply for connecting the plates to one another.

Quote:Varangians are more common with a few groups in Poland, a couple in Germany and heaps in Russia. Lithuania has one too I believe.

Oh yes, I should've guessed Russia was among them. France and Poland are a bit surprising to hear.

Quote:No surprise there. Byzantium is demonized in modern Greece. It would be an interesting idea though. For the future...

Wow, what a shame to hear. I was always curious if Byzantine history was taught in Greek elementary schools as part of learning about their heritage. I guess the Turks are the closest to being the true heirs of Byzantium despite their being Muslim. Geez, that just adds insult to injury...

~Theo
Here's the best painting I've seen of a Byzantine dromon equipped with Greek-firing siphons :

[Image: fireship.gif]

Big Grin D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D
Ok folks, I split off some posts that were going into the direction of Byzantine re-enactment, instead of weapons and warfare.
Theo, Byzantine History is tought at schools because it is part of our heritage.
The succesfull military emperors defending the empire are stressed of course and Justninian fot building Hagia Sofia (Altouhg he was a b****t in my opinion.)
Detailed research in Byzantium shows many negative things wspecially in the early and late periods
Kind regards
Stefanos, just weapons & warfare here please.... :wink:
Quote:...the bronze bust of John VIII P. with the hat from Italy.
[Image: JohnVIIIPaleologo-1.jpg]

Hello
First of all, I am French and I speak badly English. Sorry. I answers this message because I'm member of “Tagma de Byzanceâ€
Thanks for the welcome. Big Grin

Not felt. Velvet and silk on structure of starched fabric.
It's hypothetical. We miss information.
Nice choice of materials.
Even at the late sorry state of affairs the byzantine emperors were very finely dressed.

Kind regards
thank you for the compliments.

I have a question.
I do not find any document showing the armour of a Byzantine soldier
in mid-XVe century. The icons are very stylized and very "traditional".
They seem to me not very reliable.
AFAIK 15th century Byzantine arms and armour was mainly imported from Genoa and Venice or captured from the Ottomans. So they would have been wearing a mixture of Italian and Turkish equipment.
It's also worth pointing out that by the 15th century the Byzantine Empire was totally bankrupt, so only the wealthiest could afford high quality Italian armour and weapons.
But it's hypothetical. I would like formal evidences . Have images or texts which regulate this problems, please?
and did a style régionnal still exist? Is a lamellar armour still possible?
Thank's a lot!
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/C ... yz47lj.jpg
Questionable on the emperors attire but correct in the depiction of Justigniani's "wall defence specialists" - Toichomachoi Franzis calls them.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/C ... ng79ar.jpg
There were Hungarians in Pelagonia 1259 but only plausible in the 14th century. The archer is probably correct. The attire was common the balkans at the time though.

Turk killing a nobleman (king?)
The helmet comes from the Kremlin armory and it could be common in the Russian and Iberain troops that Kantakouzinos tried to rase. The armor comes from fragment from the Russian Military Museum and hagiographies of the Era.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/C ... ogance.jpg
The "Latinikoi" are corrrct if we assume thay are either troopes of Marchal Busicote (hope I spelled it right.) or Burgundians on loan to Demetrios Paleologos. The "Roman" caries Russian/Iverian equipment and can represent a late Era Varanagian officer.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/Comerus/Russ.jpg
Helemts based again on Kremlin armory.
The center figure is a probably a Varangian. The left is "regular" infantryman and the right Justigniani's Toichomachos

If we can get web info on them Olga cna help with the translation.

Hope it helps.
Kind regards
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