RomanArmyTalk

Full Version: Legio III Italica pars inferior, Castra Regina, 5th Century
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3
I've semi-cross-posted this Legio III Italica post here, where it seems to fit better than where is first arose.

I've been particularly interested in Legio III Italica since the early 1980's, when I live & worked near formar Castra Regina (present Regensburg, Germany) & the Raetian Limes.

Notitia Dignitatum (ca. 400 AD) XXXV Dux Raetiae has what seems to be a reference to Legio III Italica, which was still based in Castra Regina at the time, and some of its "vexillations" across Reatia:

Sub dispositione viri spectabilis ducis provinciae Raetiae primae et secundae:
Equites stablesiani seniores, Augustanis.
Equites stablesiani iuniores, Ponte Aoni, nunc Febians.
Equites stablesiani iuniores, Submuntorio.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris, Castra Regina, nunc Vallato.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris deputatae ripae primae, Submuntorio.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae pro parte media praetendentis a Vimania Cassiliacum usque, Cambidano.
Praefectus militum Ursariensium, Guntiae.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae transvectioni specierum deputatae, Foetibus.
Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae transvectioni specierum deputatae, Teriolis.
Praefectus alae primae Flaviae Raetorum, Quintanis.
Tribunus cohortis novae Batavorum, Batavis.
Tribunus cohortis tertiae Brittorum, Abusina.
Praefectus alae secundae Valeriae singularis, Vallatio.
Tribunus cohortis sextae Valeriaae Raetorum, Venaxamodorum.
Tribunus cohortis primae Herculeae Raetorum, Parroduno.
Tribunus cohortis quintae Valeriae Frygum, Pinianis.
Tribunus cohortis tertiae Herculeae Pannoniorum, Caelio.
Tribunus gentis per Raetias deputatae, Teriolis.
Praefectus numeri barbaricariorum, Confluentibus siue Brecantia.
Praefectus alae secundae Valeriae Sequanorum, Vimania.
Tribunus cohortis Herculeae Pannoniorum, Arbore.

My Latin skills are still basic & growing, so I'm about 50-75% sure about my understanding of LEG III ITAL references above. However, my declining German skills are still OK overall. Several German websites have LEG III ITAL history, refer to LEG III ITAL elements still operating in Raetia into the early 5th century, particularly around Alpine passes leading to Italia.

>[I'LL ADD APPLICABLE WEBSITE LINKS HERE IN A FEW WEEKS]<

That reminds me, if it's ready & possible, I'd like to proofread the RAT Ritterling LEG III ITAL text. That would refresh my memory about LEG III ITAL.

Of course, I plan more LEG III ITAL posts.

I appreciate any help with changing LEG III ITAL COH V name to the correct title for the LEG III ITAL (Main?) element that stayed in Castra Regina until the "end". +r
Hi William,
Did you see the full translation of the Ritterling article on the main site: [url:1j5loob6]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/content/view/84/113/[/url]?
OOPS! Confusedhock:
William, you are right, my mistake! I thought I looked up III Italica with Ritterling, but in fact he wrote about IIII Italica being a pseudo/comitatensis unit in the Orient. III Italica was, as you correctly pointed out, stationed along the Danube.

Jona´s page about III Italica:
http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/iii_italica.html

Tertiani Italica, the comitatensis legion derived from the old IIIrd.
[Image: 180px-Tertiani_Italica_shield_pattern.svg.png]

William, I am not sure if the 5th cohort was indeed stationed at Castra Regina in the late 4th-early 5th c. Could you show where you found that?
Hi, Jasper: Yes, I read the full translation. It's excellent overall.

Has it been proof-read? If not, then I would like to do the proof-read (as I did for LEG I ITAL). I have some free time again, and my RL work includes much text editing. +r
Hi, Robert. Thank you again for additional info & Jona's good link.

Yes, I used COH V to initially distinguish (albeit erroneously) my "group" of one from the four other LEG III ITALs.

Since "Notitia Dignitatum" is dated to my favorite Roman time period, it seems that I could correctly use "Tertiani Italica" (with added "suffix" of the unit stationed in Castra Regina), for my "group's" name.

I'll switch group name to "Tertiani Italica" for now.

Would "Legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris" = "Tertiani Italica Superiora"?

If not, what fuller name would be accurate? Please accept my thanks in advance for your help. +r
Ooops, this thread violently reminds me that I forgot to complete editing the III ITALICA translation - AAARGH!

I hope you can forgive me, but the last two months were pretty busy since I had to help prepare and put through a long range trip with the Regensburg Lusoria - and then I came home and my notebook had disappeared (stolen from my room! :evil: )!!!

Quote:I read the full translation. It's excellent overall.

Restitutus, thank you for the flowers Big Grin
And I would be glad if you could do the proofreading. (do you also want to edit it? :wink: - I unfortunately have my hands full at the moment Sad )

Florian

PS: should you have any questions about III Italica, I will certainly try to answer them!
Quote:Would "Legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris" = "Tertiani Italica Superiora"?

I would just use Tertiani, as they are listed twice under this term:

Not. Dig. occ. 5, 88 (units under the command of the Magister Militum Praesentalis): Tertiani (+ shield pattern)
Not. Dig. occ. 5, 237: tertia Italica
Not. Dig. occ. 7, 53 (= Distributio Numerorum): Tertiani

The superior/inferior distinction is very frequent among subdivisions of late Roman border legions, while the Tertiani were a splinter of III Italica which had been moved to the Illyrian mobile forces. The Tertiani were therefore an elite unit among the legiones comitatenses. Three of the five subunits of III Italica that had remained in Raetia were less prestigious border units, and two were 'only' supply units.

Hope that helps Smile
Florian
Quote:Ooops, this thread violently reminds me that I forgot to complete editing the III ITALICA translation - AAARGH!

I hope you can forgive me, but the last two months were pretty busy since I had to help prepare and put through a long range trip with the Regensburg Lusoria - and then I came home and my notebook had disappeared (stolen from my room! :evil: )!!!

Quote:I read the full translation. It's excellent overall.

Restitutus, thank you for the flowers Big Grin
And I would be glad if you could do the proofreading. (do you also want to edit it? :wink: - I unfortunately have my hands full at the moment Sad )

Florian

PS: should you have any questions about III Italica, I will certainly try to answer them!

Floria: Vielen danke! You have so much good here & elsewhere that I wouldn't even remotely consider complaining about two or more months. Big Grin

Yes, I would very much like to edit LEG III ITAL when you or Robert tell me to start. Of course, you have final say on the finished product.

Thank you also for your offer. Yes!

I have German books about Romans in Regensburg & Bayern, they mostly cover archeology, equipment, and structures. Little information available about the cultures, lifestyles, economy, migrating & mixing people, etc. That's understandable for several reasons.

I will start asking you after I have finished compiling what else I can find on the internet.

Noch mal, vielen danke! Schuß, +r

P.S. Wish I still lived & worked near Regensburg... Sad D
Quote:
Quote:Would "Legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris" = "Tertiani Italica Superiora"?

I would just use Tertiani, as they are listed twice under this term:

Not. Dig. occ. 5, 88 (units under the command of the Magister Militum Praesentalis): Tertiani (+ shield pattern)
Not. Dig. occ. 5, 237: tertia Italica
Not. Dig. occ. 7, 53 (= Distributio Numerorum): Tertiani

The superior/inferior distinction is very frequent among subdivisions of late Roman border legions, while the Tertiani were a splinter of III Italica which had been moved to the Illyrian mobile forces. The Tertiani were therefore an elite unit among the legiones comitatenses. Three of the five subunits of III Italica that had remained in Raetia were less prestigious border units, and two were 'only' supply units.

Hope that helps Smile
Florian

Thank you again for your help.

I want to use the title that would be most accurate for the unit that was based in/near Castra Regina (hopefully that was not one of the supply units... :lol: ) during the early 5th century.

Do you know the name of the unit that was based in/near Castra Regina during that period? That's most likely the name that I would want to use.

Thanks again. +r
Quote:The superior/inferior distinction is very frequent among subdivisions of late Roman border legions, while the Tertiani were a splinter of III Italica which had been moved to the Illyrian mobile forces. The Tertiani were therefore an elite unit among the legiones comitatenses. Three of the five subunits of III Italica that had remained in Raetia were less prestigious border units, and two were 'only' supply units.

Hi Florian,

By superior/inferior, don't you mean seniores/iuniores? If not, can you tell me where you found that superior/inferior distinction, which to me signifies a grografical position, as in germania superior/Germania inferior?

Indeed, while the rest of the Tertiani (Italiciani) seem to be limitanei they are also listed as a legio comitatensis (ND Occ 5.53. Occ 7.53). I would not call them an elite legion among the comitatenses, which there seems no sign for. However, the core of III Italica, in my opinion, was indeed part of the mobile field army of Illyria in 394 AD, while split off cohorts and vexillations still held the line along the Danube.

William, there seems no proof that units of III Italica held Regensburg until it ceased to be Roman. The legionary fortress seems to have been held by federates from Böhmen, they formed part of the nucleus of the first Bavarians. But I'll read up on that a bit more.
Robert: Thx for latest. I appreciate your help looking into that.

Evidence? Idea Notitia Dignitatum text, "Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris, Castra Regina, nunc Vallato."?

I roughly :? translate that text to "Prefect of the Third Italica Legion, superior part (meaning HQ or experienced veterans/retirees serving as "reservists" with foederati?), [in] Castra Regina, now Vallato (the present town of Vallato in Marche, Italy?)".

Your thoughts? Thx again. +r
Florian & Robert: Shall I start to edit the Ritterling Legio III Italica translation?

My "free time" schedule still looks good for another week or two.

Thanks again. Best regards, +r
Quote:"Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris, Castra Regina, nunc Vallato."
"Prefect of the Third Italica Legion, superior part (meaning HQ or experienced veterans/retirees serving as "reservists" with foederati?), [in] Castra Regina, now Vallato (the present town of Vallato in Marche, Italy?)".

I think that partis superioris means 'rthe upper regions', meaning a geographical place. The Vallato I can't place, since the comitatensan unit was supposed to be in Illyria.
Robert: Thank you for your continued help.

Yes, "upper regions" could work if "Raetia secunda" (i.e., northern Raetia, previously "Vindelicia") was called "Raetia superior". Still some uncertainty here.

The provinces of Egypt, Germania, Moesia & Pannonia were divided into "superior" & "inferior". Superior was the higher, uprivers part of these provinces; "inferior" was the lower, downriver part.

Northern Raetia is mostly lower and downriver from southern Raetia. Therefore, using the Roman geographic naming convention, would northern Raetia have been "Raetia inferior"?

However, maybe "superior" was used here in the sense of "upper" Prefecture of Italy or "upper" Diocese of Italy?

In any case, Notitia Dignitatum shows: Praefectus legionis tertiae Italicae partis superioris, Castra Regina..."

So maybe "upper regions" refers to the upper regions of LEG III ITAL's area of responsibility?
Well, 'Vallato' ought to be ablative, right, so it should be a place called Vallatum.

From Hazlitt's Classical Gazetteer (available here), we have:

Vallatum, a town of the Catenates, in Vindelicia (the northern portion of Rhaetia), apparently to be identified with modern Manching -- see it in the SE corner here (distinct from the Vallato in Italy -- vallatum just means "walled (place)" so it's not surprising to see it cropping up in more than one place).
Pages: 1 2 3