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Full Version: Questions (linothorax, sandals, Spartan moustache)
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Dear "Comerus Gallus Romus", you don't have any idea WHAT WE LISTENING in the news or READING in newspapers, each day!

And, for not repeating myself, JUST check "Parthenon"! Since... a decade by now, it's FULLY COVERED by scaffolding... Every tourist who visiting "Acropolis", he's watching... wooden stairs covering the marbles!

I can't remember, since WHEN I have to see a SINGLE person, working on these stairs to recover the marbles' damages!

They JUST put the damn wooden scaffolding and... left!

And I'm wondering, in Akragas (Sicily), in the "Temples' Valley", with ALL THESE fine condition Ancient Temples,... HOW these people can manage to recovering the damage and giving them to public with NO scaffolding on them???

Just wonder (I think, it called... "WORKING PROGRESS"!)...

Regards...
'Elo, back from a brief holiday. Smile

Quote:My dear Stefanos, EVERY SINGLE statue from Laconia/Lacedaimon, representing a Hoplite, having a "Bell-type" cuirass! We DON'T have TOO MANY examples - very few statues had been discover - but ALL of them showing the warrior wearing a "Bell-type" cuirass... That's "all" the references we have...

Not true. There is at least one excavated miniature replica of a bronze muscle cuirass. This might seem like very little but all our knowledge of the appearance of the short Spartan sword during the Peloponesso-Athenian wars is based on a miniature figurine as well. The muscle cuirass figure is interesting and almost looks a bit like a modern tee-shirt!

Quote:b. no footwear at all

I won't argue with this. The only reason people seem to complain to suggest that Spartans wore sandals is either to protect skin from sharp discarded weapons, or that the body armour is too much pressure on their barefeet without any protection. But in the first case - if you're going to wear sandals, the weapon will STILL cut through and puncture the skin (if it's not that sharp, then I don't see any reason to wear sandals anyway). For the second, according to a friend, it is actually quite comfortable to go barefeet while wearing a bronze cuirass - in fact, it's actually wearing sandals that can cause the traction.

Quote:c. beard without moustache (the old-fashion Hellenic style)

Little evidence of this... Plutarch mentions that each government year the Spartiates would shave their moustaches to obey the law, but this seems only to apply once during the year. Elsewhere it would be choice - a thin, almost 'oriental' moustache seems to have been common as well (if we are to trust the helot artists). It seems that many 'new' Spartiates coming out of the agoge shaved their moustache and beard, too.

Quote:d. long-long hair (braid-style and bundled in the top of the head and the edges under the helmet - a nice trick to protect the head from the helmet)

I'm fairly sure that Spartiates wore pilos caps just like the rest of the hoplites. They grew their hair long to appear more aristocratic (at least this is one of the possibilities).

Quote:e. red wool cloaks (NEVER during in battle of course!)

True... there were at least two different kinds of cloak, as well.

Quote:f. red wool tunics

Again true.

Quote:g. "one-piece" (without straps) bronze greaves

I don't see why they wouldn't use straps at times.

Quote:h. sword, of course (with "Telamona" soulder-strap; no belts of course!)

Early Spartans wore belts. Smile

Quote:i. spear

Of course.

Quote:j. "Hoplon" shield

Not necessarily, hoplon could mean any single piece of weapon or armour... you could call a 'xiphos' a 'hoplon' if you wanted. The correct term for the round shield is the 'aspis'.

Quote:THAT statue of the "so-called" 'King Leonidas', for MY opinion - among with others - DOESN'T representing a SPARTAN warrior.
Why? The helmet, my lady, the helmet... That helmet IS NOT a Spartan helmet of 5th century...
If you study it CLOSELY ("tete-a-tete"), you will notice that you watching an ATTIC helmet, with the "flapping" cheek-protections... In the many books that I have for Hoplite Warfare, NONE of them says ANYTHING about THAT type of helmet, used in Sparta during the Persian Wars...
Also... in ANY (from the VERY FEW!) small bronze idol of Spartan warriors, you can EASILY see, the long-curl-hairs.
In this statue of 'King Leonidas', you DON'T!

I agree! But I thought that the helmet could possibly be Chalkidian and the nose guard deteriated, the flapping cheek protections could still mean a Chalkidian helmet. I think the Spartans only used a Chalkidian without any cheek-protection flaps. In any case, the Attic came in too late for it to be a picture of Leonidas or any Spartan.

By the way Lupus, you're involved with the Rome Total War mod Hegemonia: City States, correct? Can't wait! Big Grin
Greetings "Zenodoros"...

Quote:Not true. There is at least one excavated miniature replica of a bronze muscle cuirass. This might seem like very little but all our knowledge of the appearance of the short Spartan sword during the Peloponesso-Athenian wars is based on a miniature figurine as well. The muscle cuirass figure is interesting and almost looks a bit like a modern tee-shirt!

We saying the same thing, my friend... "Bell-type" was the... old version of the "Muscular-type". So, some they would use the old type, taken from father-to-son and others would taken a "brand-new" cuirass.
It's like the Airborn Division in WWII... The fellows from the Tynisia's campaign would worn the old uniforms/equipment; the new "rookies" in 1944 would had the NEW TYPES...

Quote:b. no footwear at all

It's so simple explaination... As a boy-scout myself, I found MORE "effective" to work in the boy-camp BAREFOOT, because my feet could be EASILY stick in the dirt...
So, a full-armed Hoplite, wearing a 35 kgr. AT LEAST weaponry on and start a battle, could MORE easily used his feet witout any footwear...

Quote:Little evidence of this... Plutarch mentions that each government year the Spartiates would shave their moustaches to obey the law, but this seems only to apply once during the year. Elsewhere it would be choice - a thin, almost 'oriental' moustache seems to have been common as well (if we are to trust the helot artists). It seems that many 'new' Spartiates coming out of the agoge shaved their moustache and beard, too
.

True, I agree... ALMOST everything about Spartans, are speculations & theory...

Quote:I'm fairly sure that Spartiates wore pilos caps just like the rest of the hoplites. They grew their hair long to appear more aristocratic (at least this is one of the possibilities).

Yeap, they worn a wool-Pylos hat; Xenophon wrote many times about... taking off the helmets and leach their Pylos-hats to loose the TONES of sweat...

Quote:I don't see why they wouldn't use straps at times.

Of course they could... I just saying what I'm watching on statues... And, ONE PIECE armor part, is MORE "effective" that composite parts...

Quote:Early Spartans wore belts.

OF COURSE they did! Like ALL Greeks... But we talking about 5th century BC Hoplites, no?

Quote:Not necessarily, hoplon could mean any single piece of weapon or armour... you could call a 'xiphos' a 'hoplon' if you wanted. The correct term for the round shield is the 'aspis'.

Yes, of course you're right... "Hoplites" name DON'T COMES from the "Hoplon" word, many believes taking about the shield.
"ASPIS" is the right word...
"Hoplites" words comes from the word "HOPLA", which is ALL THE HOPLITE's EQUIPMENT!

Quote:I agree! But I thought that the helmet could possibly be Chalkidian and the nose guard deteriated, the flapping cheek protections could still mean a Chalkidian helmet. I think the Spartans only used a Chalkidian without any cheek-protection flaps. In any case, the Attic came in too late for it to be a picture of Leonidas or any Spartan.

SURE! It could be a "Chalkidian"! But, seams to me when I saw that statue from sort distance, it looks like an "Attic" type...

Quote:By thway Lupus, you're involved with the Rome Total War mod Hegemonia: City States, correct? Can't wait!e

I've LEFT THEM, long time ago, my friend! UNFORTUNATELLY!...
I was SO DEVOTED to this HISTORIC PC GAME's MOD (when it started!), but when this became "ONE GUY PERSONAL OPINION" mod, I fought against that, I LOOSE... and left ("self-exiled")! Also, a couple of SUPERB artists, like "Idomeneas" & "Ellysian Warrior" (too bad that "Hegemonia" would not have his SUPERB "Spartan" 3D models!) left after me...

TOO BAD, that I didn't found STEFANOS before and ask him to honor us, by coming in the "Hegemonia" team as HISTORIC ADVISOR!
We had in stead (and STILL is!), an arrogant and stupid teenager, thinking himself as... a modern Herodotus!

...

BTW - guys, check these books, you'll find them EXTREMELY interesting:

- "The Western Way of War", Victor Davis Hanson
- "The Wars of Ancient Greeks", Victor Davis Hanson
- "The Face of Battle", John Cigan
- "The Greek State at War", William Kentric Priecher

Regrads.
Something else...

That probably goes to Stefanos, but I guess anyone that knows, can answer the follow:

I DO know, about the Spartan "Dokana"... "banner-flag".

That I'M NOT really sure is,... did ALL Hellenic factions used something like a war-banner, flag???

We know about the Athenian "Paladion" (an Athenian banner, USED IN FESTIVALS!), but... what about WAR-BANNERS???

And if yes, can someone write a sort-of-list of "which-kind" of banner to which faction?

(Does the Argives used a white-painted shield on a pole?... Sort answers in questions like this, I'm kindly asking...)

Regards.
Quote:We saying the same thing, my friend... "Bell-type" was the... old version of the "Muscular-type". So, some they would use the old type, taken from father-to-son and others would taken a "brand-new" cuirass.

As I thought, glad there's an agreement there. Smile

Quote:I've LEFT THEM, long time ago, my friend! UNFORTUNATELLY!...
I was SO DEVOTED to this HISTORIC PC GAME's MOD (when it started!), but when this became "ONE GUY PERSONAL OPINION" mod, I fought against that, I LOOSE... and left ("self-exiled")! Also, a couple of SUPERB artists, like "Idomeneas" & "Ellysian Warrior" (too bad that "Hegemonia" would not have his SUPERB "Spartan" 3D models!) left after me...

TOO BAD, that I didn't found STEFANOS before and ask him to honor us, by coming in the "Hegemonia" team as HISTORIC ADVISOR!
We had in stead (and STILL is!), an arrogant and stupid teenager, thinking himself as... a modern Herodotus!

That's very unfortunate. Sad Hopefully it'll still turn out good, though.
Quote:As I thought, glad there's an agreement there.

With an Australian???

We BLEED together in WWII, for pitty shake! :lol:

Quote:That's very unfortunate. Hopefully it'll still turn out good, though

Unlikelly! I'm still have an access in the developing sector...

YOU DON'T want to see what I've seen...
Not even "Troy" the movie had so inaccurated crap...
And about ART QUALITY... HA! Don't get me laugh!
I thought the Spartanshere looked pretty good. Maybe not precise, but better than other mods I've seen. But if they've changed, then that really sucks.
Quote:I thought the Spartanshere looked pretty good. Maybe not precise, but better than other mods I've seen. But if they've changed, then that really sucks.

Hehehe... You watching some OLD 3D models (NOT USING now!) from a person that LEFT (since XMass!) the team and TOOK them with him...

You also watching some... skins' parts of mine, some shields' symbols of mine and tunic patterns of mine (the last two of them, are still in use...)

These 3D models looking nice, but you WOULD NOT BELIEVE the fresh-new ones! But... that dude that made these FINE NEW models/skins... ALSO left the team! :lol:

So... Nor these you post or the ones that I'm telling you, "Hegemonia" will use!

Unfortunatelly! (BTW - I've seen the... new ones and sucks!)
What do the new ones look like? Don't tell me they wear linothorax and have lamthas on their shields...!
Well... some of them WILL wearing "Linos"... "Lamdas" is OUT of question, of course.
Even that stupid jarhead ("Hegemonia's"... historic advisor - ZEUS!) is not THAT idiot to add "Lamda" on the shields.

Look... the new models/skins probably will look almost similar with the old ones...

A... "talent full" 3D "master", in their developing team, try (HARD ENOUGH!) to re-make the models like the old ones...

BELIEVE ME! These old models may looking fine (although the skins are crappy! LOTS of artwork failures...), but there not TOTALY accurated.

That friend of mine ("Ellysian Warrior"), the modeler/skiner that ALSO left them (but he had MAKE already the new ones!),... this guy spend over 200 EUROs (!) in books about Hoplites' Warfare, just to be sure he'll make THE MOST ACCURATED models around the Net!
And he DID IT!

Unfortunatelly, they MADE him leave also as I did...

Their miss-fortune, not ours... (The three of us, we're waiting this... crap to be released and start working HARD, to make it SERIOUS & ACCURATED Historic mod!)

Cheers mate.

Anonymous

Quote:'Elo, back from a brief holiday. Smile

- if you're going to wear sandals, the weapon will STILL cut through and puncture the skin Big Grin

Not if you had decent sandals. A good one would have an ox- or cow-hide sole and no discarded weapon would penetrate it. Indeed, leather has a special quality which enables it to "turn" sharp points and edges, not allowing them to grip and penetrate. This is why it was so often used to make or cover shields. There is plenty of evidence for this last, both historical and from practical experiments. Leather sandals WORK.
Tegeat hoplite is wrong!
Most of the staff writen there is generalizations

Just got back from vacations in Lakonia.
I rumbled in Mani the route that Lakonian costguard patrols took.
You cannot go anywhere without sandals not to mention beotian boots!
There is a HUGE difference reading books and speculating and following the same trail. We stoped the car on out way in Thyrea and we visited Maninea in one day excursion. There is very little terrain that you can negotiate barefoot. After talking with old people over 65 I learned that they worked barefoot in the fields that were flat but had legs in putee style covers.
Astrite snake bite can be vary dangerous in summer. They wore shoes to go from home to field. Their grand fathers were so poor that children went barefoot and wore shoes only on Sundays in church.
Be real hardened feet do not negotiate this stony ground.

Kind regards
Quote:So, a full-armed Hoplite, wearing a 35 kgr. AT LEAST weaponry on and start a battle, could MORE easily used his feet witout any footwear...
I would dispute this. Even my Dendra Panoply only weighs 25 kg and it is a little heavier than the original. Even with the aspis, classical hoplites carried less weight. Connolly puts the weight of the bell cuirass at around 6 kg and the aspis at 7 kg.
Quote:Tegeat hoplite is wrong!

Who said it's not, my dear Stefane? ALMOST all the 3D models/skins of this PC game mod, are not accurated because they been made from a CZECH 3D artist, with NO serious historic knowledge and patronised by a Greek teenager, thinking himself as an expert...
So, what you expect, friend?

The NEW 3D models/skins are superb & accurated! Made by a Greek 2D modeler (an ORIGINAL SPARTAN, bron in Sparta!), who spend over 200 EUROS in books, specially writting about the LACONIC warfare...

Quote:Most of the staff writen there is generalizations
Quote:There is a HUGE difference reading books and speculating and following the same trail

My friends... I don't believe that me, you, any historic/researcher... EVER be a Hoplite in the past!
We ALL reading books, following evidince & marks and we DO MAKING SPECULATIONS!
All of us! Even the archeologists DOES speculations!
If someone INVENT a time-mashine and travel in time BACK THEN, take some nice videos or pictures of the REAL Ancient Greeks,... then HE will saying/showing the TRUTH!
All the rest of us, we speculating!

Quote:You cannot go anywhere without sandals not to mention beotian boots!

I don't remember that I said "they were travel everywhere barefoot" or "they used to walking around with no shoes"... EVEN me, not a Hoplite one (!), durring my boy-scout summer-camps or my military service, I found myself barefoot to help my work, under the sun, on a earthen field...

I said, many PREFERED not wearing shoes, because naked feet "sinking" easily in the dirt and HELPS better the soldier in battle - ESPECIALLY in "Othismos" maneuver...

Quote:I would dispute this. Even my Dendra Panoply only weighs 25 kg and it is a little heavier than the original. Even with the aspis, classical hoplites carried less weight. Connolly puts the weight of the bell cuirass at around 6 kg and the aspis at 7 kg.

In EVERY book I own for Ancient Greek warfare (over 100 books), every author (ancient or modern) speaks about the HUGE weight of the panoply!
The "Aspis" was between 9-11 kgr heavy... The helmet ONLY, was about 3 kgr AT LEAST heavy - if it had a HIGH-LONG plume, it was heavier... Your "Dendron" panoply was as much as heavy as it was a Medival Knight's armor! That's why these guys fought on chariots and they had "bad day", if they had to get of the chariot and fight in the ground...

Anyway... My opinions and my books' knowlege...

Regards.
The Tegeatic shield desighn is wrong and in archaic and in classic period. Mandinea amd Thyrea are quite stony and there is no guarantee that the crops were orderly arranged as to asume that the hoplites fought in flat terrain with grain, onion or carrot fields. The grave stelle show that a special sandal or even boot was available to the hoplites.
A man can walk and work bare foot in his own garden and field as the old people there told me. He wouldn't risk his feet in unknown terrain.
Lets get over the barefoot myth!

P.S. The only bare foot we did in "national service" was we washed our guardhouse in the border and then only on stone tiles NOT dirt!


Kind regards
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