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Full Version: Questions (linothorax, sandals, Spartan moustache)
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Quote:Spartan would be more metal-armored army in Greece initially but attrition would step up the increase of the linothorax.

I thought this too, because the Spartans were usually at the forefront of new military design and tactics, but this was really only from about the mid 5th century. Before that they were traditionalists and prefered fighting in their bronze cuirasses, maybe sometimes leather. Also, they would be supplying for less men than other states, so it probably wouldn't be that big a problem, since the Spartan population was always declining. The expenses probably also meant that sons wore their father's cuirasses after they had died or retired, as that was the case for expensive helmets.
Not only the Spartans-almost everybody.
Your conclusions are correct in my opinion.

Example: 400 out of 700 Thespians dead at Delion. If 150 of them were artisans, not only the weapons teqhnics would suffer but the economy as well.
Thebans drove them out of their land a few years later because the couldn´t proprly equip their army. Many ancient cities suffered similarly.

Kind regards
Quote:Not only the Spartans-almost everybody.

Yep - Corinthian and other obsolete helmets worn during the Peloponessian war could have dated back to the Persian Wars and previously been owned by a hoplite's father or grandfather, this applied to all states involved, with the possible exception of Sparta.
If you talking about Lacedaimonians only, in the centuries of their mighty power/glory (5th-4th BC), they worn/had:

a. ONLY "Kodonoschemous" full-Bronze cuirass
b. no footwear at all
c. beard without moustache (the old-fashion Hellenic style)
d. long-long hair (braid-style and bundled in the top of the head and the edges under the helmet - a nice trick to protect the head from the helmet)
e. red wool cloaks (NEVER during in battle of course!)
f. red wool tunics
g. "one-piece" (without straps) bronze greaves
h. sword, of course (with "Telamona" soulder-strap; no belts of course!)
i. spear
j. "Hoplon" shield

... and their "wooden rings" (in battle) around their necks or elsewhere; these were the Spartan's... "US tag", for identify them if their corpses were in bad shape (they were writting in a piece of wooden ring their names and they broke one piece of it - leaving back in their camp, so the survivors would easily match the pieces...)

Hope I helped enough...
Quote:If you talking about Lacedaimonians only, in the centuries of their mighty power/glory (5th-4th BC), they worn/had:

a. ONLY "Kodonoschemous" full-Bronze cuirass

What reference we have for ONLY bell-type cuirass?

Quote:b. no footwear at all
Read my previous post

Quote:d. long-long hair (braid-style and bundled in the top of the head and the edges under the helmet - a nice trick to protect the head from the helmet)
Practival experimets proved it cannot be done. You need arming cup for a helmet. There are examples of arming cups on potery.

Quote:g. "one-piece" (without straps) bronze greaves
h. no belts of course

... and their "wooden rings" (in battle) around their necks or elsewhere; these were the Spartan's... "US tag", for identify them if their corpses were in bad shape (they were writting in a piece of wooden ring their names and they broke one piece of it - leaving back in their camp, so the survivors would easily match the pieces...)

What reference we have for wooden rings?
What makes you think that only "one piece" grieves existed ?

Kind regards
Quote:What reference we have for ONLY bell-type cuirass?

My dear Stefanos, EVERY SINGLE statue from Laconia/Lacedaimon, representing a Hoplite, having a "Bell-type" cuirass! We DON'T have TOO MANY examples - very few statues had been discover - but ALL of them showing the warrior wearing a "Bell-type" cuirass... That's "all" the references we have...

Quote:
lupus:1d1nm2m5 Wrote:b. no footwear at all
Read my previous post

I've read your previous post... And as we all know, DURING SUMMER (ALL battles took place in summer! Hellenes always wait the summer for their campaigns - except some VERY SMALL exceptions...), in the dust & the dirt, you finding yourself EASY not using footware, because the naked foot is "grapping" the earth EASILY...

Quote:
lupus:1d1nm2m5 Wrote:d. long-long hair (braid-style and bundled in the top of the head and the edges under the helmet - a nice trick to protect the head from the helmet)
Practival experimets proved it cannot be done. You need arming cup for a helmet. There are examples of arming cups on potery.

Indeed, I know that you said... But, even Xenophon wrote, that Spartans used (probably in the early times) a "hair-net", holding their greasy hair...

Quote:
lupus:1d1nm2m5 Wrote:g. "one-piece" (without straps) bronze greaves
h. no belts of course

... and their "wooden rings" (in battle) around their necks or elsewhere; these were the Spartan's... "US tag", for identify them if their corpses were in bad shape (they were writting in a piece of wooden ring their names and they broke one piece of it - leaving back in their camp, so the survivors would easily match the pieces...)

What reference we have for wooden rings?
What makes you think that only "one piece" grieves existed ?

Herodotus wrote about these "wooden-rings"; the writer Springfield ("Gates of Fire") did a long research about that and included that in his novel (he likes to be as much as accurate he can)...

I didn't say that ALL Hellenes used ONLY the "one-piece" greaves... Of course they used greaves with leather-straps... But, like I wrote above, in ANY bronze idol we have from Laconia (unfortunatelly, only few), they wearing ONE PIECE greaves...
And, if you make a speculation, a ONE-PIECE greave or armor is MUCH more effective... One-piece weapons/armor, are much more long-lasting from the "composed" ones...

Cheers, dear Stefanos...
My dear "Comerus Gallus Romus", one of the Spartans' "mark" was that "old-fashion" tradition; having beard & shaven moustache.

Stefanos is MOST experienced person to ask for; I guess he'll agree...
There is old Laconic potery showing hoplites with various type of cuirraces not just bell cuirrass.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hoplite14 ... pg&.src=ph

Can you quote Herodus exactly on the wooden rings?

Kind regards
Quote:There is old Laconic potery showing hoplites with various type of cuirraces not just bell cuirrass.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hoplite14 ... pg&.src=ph

Can you quote Herodus exactly on the wooden rings?

Kind regards

a. This fine pottery-art, shows aswell Boeotian shields too! Are these Hoplites Spartans? (Whatever the descriprion says?)... We always talking about the "Medika" (Persian Wars) and Peloponnesian War, right?

b. I'll try, my dear Stefane... I'll try to find details about that "wooden-ring-tags"...

Regards...
Follow the Beotian shield thread for more details.

Laconic femilies who traced their heritage to Bronze age might follow the non moustace fahion. There is potery depictin Laconians minos moustase and a quote "shave moustshes and obey the Law" but if it was something required from all is not yet answered in my opinion. Not that shaved moustase was permanent.

Kind regards
Quote:Follow the Beotian shield thread for more details.

I'm on it...

Quote:Laconic femilies who traced their heritage to Bronze age might follow the non moustace fahion. There is potery depictin Laconians minos moustase and a quote "shave moustshes and obey the Law" but if it was something required from all is not yet answered in my opinion. Not that shaved moustase was permanent.

Ok... Any link or bibliography, for more details to study?

Regards.
Khaire Comerus,
this may be of interestSparta Museum
I will see if I can find a better picture of the Pithos....
there is a comment that a slinger depicted has a crested helm... :wink:
The illustration below is from [url:ojlb3lv3]http://www.sikyon.com/Sparta/sparta_eg.html[/url]
Take a look through the 'Art' section.....I love the illustration of Zeus and the eagle.......!
regards
Quote:Khaire Comerus,
this may be of interestSparta Museum
I will see if I can find a better picture of the Pithos....
there is a comment that a slinger depicted has a crested helm... :wink:
regards

Greetings my lady...

Yes, I've been a couple of times in Sparta's museum (when I went for vacations, in Nauplio & Monembasia)... UNFORTUNATELLY, this museum is probably the most "poor" of all Greek museums...
Why "poor"? Well, the deceased Spartan professor/philosoph DIMITRIOS LIADINIS, many times complained to the Laconia's Prefecture, that they DON'T care about the Lacedaimonians' "treasures" and they keep destroying mindless everything, by building structures/stores/houses EVERYWHERE, without searching first!
I had a college fellow, a Spartan, and he told me (like a joke!), that if someone would dig in his garden to plant... potatos or something, he would probably found a skeleton, fully armed!...

In modern Sparta, the Authority-Puplic Service, don't pay much of attention for their ancient history (at least, since 2004, when I've been there, last time...). Generally, in Greece, DON'T pay much of attention for the Ancient "treasures"...

So... in THIS museum, the Sparta's museum, there are several FINE pieces of Lacedaimonians, but quite few...

THAT statue of the "so-called" 'King Leonidas', for MY opinion - among with others - DOESN'T representing a SPARTAN warrior.
Why? The helmet, my lady, the helmet... That helmet IS NOT a Spartan helmet of 5th century...
If you study it CLOSELY ("tete-a-tete"), you will notice that you watching an ATTIC helmet, with the "flapping" cheek-protections... In the many books that I have for Hoplite Warfare, NONE of them says ANYTHING about THAT type of helmet, used in Sparta during the Persian Wars...
Also... in ANY (from the VERY FEW!) small bronze idol of Spartan warriors, you can EASILY see, the long-curl-hairs.
In this statue of 'King Leonidas', you DON'T!

Anyway... This is not JUST my opinion... Many historic/archeologists disputing and don't agree, that this is 'King Leonidas' statue...

Regards my lady...
Khaire,
I just added a little more to that post....!
Do you mean that they do not undertake archaeological digs, even if they find something of interest.....?
I don't like concrete covering everything at the best of times....let alone ancient ruins.....It does sound as though they don't care about their Spartan heritage :evil:
I just read that the Maniots are considered to be the closest descendants of the Spartans...in manner as well as ancestry...
regards
Arthes
My lady...

... I'll give you a "hint", to figure out how much the authorities here "care" about our Ancient Treasures...

We build the Metro (Subway) network, for the Olympic Games of 2004...

Do you have ANY POSSIBLE idea, HOW MANY DOZEN of Ancient ruines, the workshop's men found and... COVERED them with concrete and continue digging for the Subway's corridors???

A FULL suburb of Ancient Athens, with a HUGE cemetary... GONE under the concrete! MANY newspapers CRY-OUT, but here in Greece... "democracy" is synonym with ANARCHY!

... And I've wrote before, few days ago - I thing, about the HUGE CRIME they're doing in SALAMINA and the tombs of the Salamina's FALLEN!

That's the sad... "Greek modern dream"...

ANYTHING for the money!

Regards my lady.
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