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Hi, it's been a long time since I've been on here.

I'm looking for credible evidence of the figure 8 shields. I've searched here and can't find cited sources, only the occasional reference to them. I've found several images of vases with figure 8 shields on them but almost none of them can be linked back to a credible source.

Thanks for any help

Charles
Do you mean the "boeotian" or "dipylon" shield? Both are very well represented in art. There are perhaps thousands of boeotian shield depictions occurring on pottery in museum and private collections, so often are they depicted that it is hard to accept they are simply a persistent artistic convention as some believe due to the lack of hard artifactual evidence.
(07-11-2017, 02:05 AM)Creon01 Wrote: [ -> ]Do you mean the "boeotian" or "dipylon" shield? Both are very well represented in art. There are perhaps thousands of boeotian shield depictions occurring on pottery in museum and private collections, so often are they depicted that it is hard to accept they are simply a persistent artistic convention as some believe due to the lack of hard artifactual evidence.

Yes, I've also heard them called peanut shields. And I've seen several pottery with them but all of the images are from sites like Wikipedia and Pintrest. What I'm looking for are museum sites with those images or similar sites.
The figure-8 shield predates the dipylon and seems to have been constructed differently, though we only have illustrations to go by. The latter had a hand grip while the former was wielded by means of a shoulder strap. If you define "credible evidence" as archaeological remains then there aren't any.
Charles,

By "credible source" are you looking for original archaeological reports, museum catalogues, etc.?
Have you tried looking at the Met and British Museum sites? They offer many good images with usable search engines.

For the earliest types of shields with a Figure 8 designs try here: http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/shields1.htm

Scroll all the way down for this passage below and some very interesting pics.

"The most common type of Achaean body-shield was the figure-at-eight shield. It is represented on pottery, wall-paintings and sculpture both as defence weapons and decorative motif or cult symbol.This shield was probably composed by two internal bow-shaped piece of wood fastened to form a cross. Several layers of toughened bull's hide (*5) were glued and stitched to a wicker structure. In a couple of "Warriors' graves" from Haghios Joannis and Knossos dated around the middle of 15th century BC several fragments of copper wire shaped as staples have been found. These wires could have been used to joint together the several layers of hide of a body-shield and it is more likely the only survived element of a perishable material body-shield used in that time. A rim probably made of leather or bronze was normally placed around the shield as well as a longitudinal central reinforcement which based on some colourful representations it could have been made of bronze, tin or wood. Internal grip and baldric were used by the warrior to properly handle the shield."
These are interesting ancient artifacts that might help.

Look closely at the first hunter.

[Image: 35052066204_090228548c_z.jpg]

Again, look behind the figure.

[Image: 35503772350_7e33678076_z.jpg]
(07-13-2017, 04:13 AM)Creon01 Wrote: [ -> ]Internal grip and baldric were used by the warrior to properly handle the shield.

They probably didn't have a hand grip. Illustrations suggest that they were wielded solely by means of a shield strap. Herodotus says the same thing.
He also says that the first shields with handgrips were used by the Carians. The first handgrips likely coincide with the first shields that had central shield bosses near the end of the Bronze Age.
Hey Dan, I just quoted what Andrea Salimbeti wrote. Still, I can't imagine with all their other achievements they did not see the need for a hand grip of some sort to better control such a large shield. As you can guess I like the idea that Salimbeti thinks the layers of protective material were glued together...where else did I hear something like that....

I see on his website that the last update was just a few months ago so he's still searching for answers.

But seriously, the lack of much hard evidence regarding the various types of shields we observe in Greek art makes definitive statements problematic.
If you are going to make one, check this out:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_Ce...topic=1415
I doubt there was a wicker interior (though some depictions seem to show it), but the edges of the "8" might have a bent wood edging that the hide flaps are sewn over.
Todd! Why not wicker as a base for the shield? It's plentiful and reasonably sturdy. Lack of hard evidence?
(07-13-2017, 05:03 PM)Creon01 Wrote: [ -> ]Todd! Why not wicker as a base for the shield? It's plentiful and reasonably sturdy. Lack of hard evidence?
Hi Joe!
They certainly could have used wicker (or used it in some shields).  I think if you had multiple hides that the wicker would be unnecessary, and the whole shebang would be stabilized by the "keel".

[Image: ShieldFresco01.jpg]
Note the stitching that appears to hold the layers together and likely goes through each end of the keel.
If anyone is interested in a good willow shield artisan I recommend this maker as she's made two large Roman scutum type shields and one Persian style shield for me this year. Her prices are reasonable and she works fast. I'm sure with proper guidance she could make a Figure 8 type shield if anyone wanted to experiment with adding the rest of the materials. She's in Bosnia so European shipping will be reasonable.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/WillowSouvenir

Pics from a recent Roman event in Vermont.

[Image: 35839492185_782ebd5def.jpg]
(07-13-2017, 04:16 PM)Creon01 Wrote: [ -> ]Hey Dan, I just quoted what Andrea Salimbeti wrote. Still, I can't imagine with all their other achievements they did not see the need for a hand grip of some sort to better control such a large shield. As you can guess I like the idea that Salimbeti thinks the layers of protective material were glued together...where else did I hear something like that....

Homer says that the layers of hide in shields were sewn or stapled together. Some illustrations like the one shown by Todd above seem to show stitching or staples. Salimbeti himself cites the existence of staples at Knossos and thinks that they came from a hide shield so he contradicts himself about the glued nonsense. He is an acolyte of D'Amato and doesn't have a clue how armour or shields actually function. His website is good for all the artefacts that he has collected in one place but his commentary and speculative reconstructions aren't much use.

Agreed with Todd that wicker is unnecessary. All you need is a few layers of hide and the central spine or "keel" to maintain structural integrity. I would make them like Homeric shields with the most layers in the middle around the keel and only one layer out near the rim.
I knew once D'Amato's name was linked to the page someone would say something lol.

Still, it's a good resource.

Homer says a lot of things and there are what, a dozen versions, and countless translations (some scholar has a website that lists all the known versions)...so what do we take as gospel and what do we scratch our heads over? A lot of folks we both know, and we probably do it as well, find the passages in the version and translation of Homer they like because it supports our pov and ignore anything that seems to not agree with us. There's not even a consensus that a person named 'Homer" actually existed and if he/they were describing warfare in their own period, or a much earlier time.
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