RomanArmyTalk

Full Version: Has anyone else seen this cinerary urn before?
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2221923718/

I think this is the most paint I've ever seen left on any type of sculpture from the Roman period (despite the fact that it is not Roman in origin). Although the figures on the urn are obviously "heroic" (note the nude man with cape) and not necessarily supposed to be accurate depictions of contemporary warriors, I do find the color scheme painted on the combatants to be very interesting.

Has anyone seen this before? Possibly in person? Does anyone know anything else about it (possibly repainted post-antiquity?) I'm surprised I've never seen it mentioned anywhere before in the arguments over traditional military colors.
I've been to the museum twice and never saw these that I can recall!
Thanks for posting!
There you go. It is original paint. The pic you have there seems to have been worked over, though, the colors are much brighter than on the original.
[attachment=4666]DSC01150.JPG[/attachment]
Yes I have seen this before and as Christian say's it is not as bright in reality as your photo.

There are I think literally hundreds of similar urns although not all with the figures on the top. They seem to be pretty standard with the same design many coloured to a lesse or greater degree and showing the same colour schemes. While the tunics tend to all be red perhaps what is more interesting are the multi-coloured pteryges!

I think Jurjen bases his reconstruction on these or maybe he saw my reconstruction in 'The Arms and Amour of Imperial Rome'!

I mention the urns briefly in 'Roman Military Dress'.

Graham.
It is very interesting, many thnx for posting it!
Will to link in FB.
Zitat: "While the tunics tend to all be red perhaps what is more interesting are the multi-coloured pteryges!"

Agree, i am saying allways, that we don't know for many details made by organic materials on the clothes, how they were look like in the past and our LH clothes are today full "nacked."

Joze
Quote:There are I think literally hundreds of similar urns although not all with the figures on the top. They seem to be pretty standard with the same design many coloured to a lesse or greater degree and showing the same colour schemes. While the tunics tend to all be red perhaps what is more interesting are the multi-coloured pteryges!

I was aware that there are a multitude of similar urns in existence, but the striking and vibrant colors (which must have been touched up) remaining on the combatants is what really caught my eye.

The uniformity of the tunics as red, and particularly the bright red/blue pteryges really interest me. Even if the colors have been altered, perhaps the original would have looked similar? I mean, the colors are 2,000+ years old, and certainly would have faded much. I wonder what materials would have held such colorful dyes or pigments best...
Sorry to double-post, but I must retract my previous statement. Not all of the tunics are uniformly red. I also see purple, and yellow/red tunics.
Quote:
Graham Sumner post=316763 Wrote:There are I think literally hundreds of similar urns although not all with the figures on the top. They seem to be pretty standard with the same design many coloured to a lesse or greater degree and showing the same colour schemes. While the tunics tend to all be red perhaps what is more interesting are the multi-coloured pteryges!

I was aware that there are a multitude of similar urns in existence, but the striking and vibrant colors (which must have been touched up) remaining on the combatants is what really caught my eye.

The uniformity of the tunics as red, and particularly the bright red/blue pteryges really interest me. Even if the colors have been altered, perhaps the original would have looked similar? I mean, the colors are 2,000+ years old, and certainly would have faded much. I wonder what materials would have held such colorful dyes or pigments best...

The colours are original, but, as others have noted, they are not nearly as vibrant in reality as that picture shows them. Such cinerary urns were very well preserved because they were placed in underground tomb chambers, many of which were also decorated with very well preserved paintings.
We have to be very careful with the interpretation of these colours. They might very well show something that has nothing to do with what the "real" soldiers looked like. As an example a pic of the Augustus statue from primaporta, which shows, based on a scientific / chemical analysis (note that Lindenschmit┬┤s drawing (1st pic) was rather "inspired") that the colors were chosen in regard of visibility and to emphasize certain details. Also, apparently often the paint was applied to follow a specific taste, compare Pliny┬┤s four-colour system.


[attachment=4668]Tafel_08.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=4669]primapo.jpg[/attachment]
Here some pics of the urn, note that green might have been blue (malachite => azurite)


[attachment:1]IMG_8246.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment:2]DSC05560.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment:3]DSC05563.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment:4]DSC05564.JPG[/attachment]
Here some pics of the urn, note that green might have been blue (malachite => azurite)


[attachment=4670]DSC05560.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=4671]DSC05563.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=4672]DSC05564.JPG[/attachment]