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Thanks dear friends!


@ Pavel I'm not a colourist! When I watch your work I understand that you are a painter and I'm not! ;-) , Anyway thanks for your suggestions!

@Robert, thank you and ... you are right, I'll remove the spear from the head!! :whistle:

The helmet of the guy is there to show what I think about the origin of the mysterious Frankish Carolingian helmets....a direct Romance origin from Late Roman models.

About the battle: Yes it's like a last stand, but why not? They maintained the ridge till Attila left the field so...again: Why not?

About the French cultural atmosphere, well it's a Romance enviroment with Visigoths, Franks, Alans, all speaking Voulgar Latin, all ready to become a single Romance community, after something like 20 years from the battle of Chalons they will be no more Romans but Frankish (or later: French), speaking a Voulgar latin called French...so some moustache is a nice idea IMO!
The battle wasn't going sour for the Roman side Diocle.

The origin of later Carolingian helmets comes from Roman helmets: LAte roman ridge helms became something like what was seen on the painting of the assassination of st. boniface, and then became Carolingian.

The transition was not quick Diocle - people spoke Latin for centuries after the collapse of Roman Gual.
Indeed, as late as the post-Charlemagne 9th century Carolingians nobles from West Francia were being sent East to "learn the Frankish ways" including the language.
Quote:The battle wasn't going sour for the Roman side Diocle.

The origin of later Carolingian helmets comes from Roman helmets: LAte roman ridge helms became something like what was seen on the painting of the assassination of st. boniface, and then became Carolingian.

The transition was not quick Diocle - people spoke Latin for centuries after the collapse of Roman Gual.

Exactly what I wrote Magister.

The Language spoken wasn't Latin but Voulgar Latin and this from the first century AD, Magister!!!

Remember that Catullus use the word 'Bellus' with the mean of 'Pulcher' (Beautiful) and 'Caballus' as the italian Cavallo or the Sapnish Caballo or the French 'cheval' with the mean of 'Equus'(En. Horse), Magister.

the Latin we sudied is the Latin spoken by the Senatorial Aristocracy , Magister.
A language that remained unchanged and was definitively fixed by Charlemagne.

Instead the Language of the common people in the Romance Europe was the Voulgar Latin, a living language which is still alive and kicking!

That Spoken Latin has changed name, now it is no more called Voulgar Latin but it has became the National Voulgar Languages of the today Romance Europe. Today the spoken Latin is called French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese and Romanian but also Catalan or Ladino or Provencal but actually it's always the Old King! Confusedmile:

Magister do you know the Latin Declinations? Well how many years did you need to learn the five declinations? And the Verbs? and the syntax and grammar?

Well, now, Do you think that a poor paesant of Gaul or Italy could spend at least five years learning the desinences of the five Latin declinations? Not he couldn't! So the Spoken Latin had not desineces instead it used the articles or the pronouns.

example:

'Foemina', (En. woman), its Genitive, as you well know, is 'Foeminae', with the mean of: 'Of the woman';

now our poor peasnt who didn't study the damn Language of Cicero, he didn't declinated the word 'Foemina' but to say 'Of the woman' our peasant probably used: 'De illa foemina', as in French:'de la femme', in Italian: 'della femmina' and so on...Understood? De (adverb), illa (pronoun), and foemina undeclined! It's simple and beautiful, sadly it changes the whole syntactic structure of the Latin, but the Senatorial aristocracy was very happy of this issue, yes because in this way they maintained the social class difference on which they based their power. ;-)

Welcome in the Romance Europe Magister!

It's an ancient world dating from the time of the first Roamn conquests, and always evolving, always alive and probably today the first Linguistic group of the world (Spanish + French + Italian + Portugese + Romanian = Romance Languages)! Cool

(I've the suspect having already written this post...some time ago, and probably me and Pseudo Romanus have written this simple explanation many times....but REPETITA IUVANT!) Confusedmile:

About the 'cassis'....wait and see.....
Well...any tips how to learn latin really quickly?I need it to pass my exam Confusedad:
LOL PAVEL! :grin:

Same here... :neutral:

@Diocle

2 years of latin and I still don't know all five cases, and we're doing gerundives and ablatives and stuff. You can't imagine how lost I am.
So you probably understand what I'm saying: There was no way for a poor peasnt to learn the language of Cicero! Too much time!

So they spoke a Voulgar Spoken Latin that is the mom of our current Romance languages, and this happened very, very early from the first century IMO.

About Romance Legacy, my new work, its title is:

'Romance Miles, V century AD, Legio Pseudocomitatensis Romanenses', under the Magister Equitum per Gallias.

The man has nothing of special, but you might be slightly confused by some details: The Helmet, the Ango, and the Axe.
But if you think about the matter you'll understand my chices.

This man has a typical Late Roman equipment:

- The Cassis is a ridge helmet, made of tow bowls held toghter by a central ridge, the helmet has been made by some smith in Gaul, it's without cheeck pieces but the bowl is lightly enlongated on the neck. Nobody will ever be able to persuade me that during the last twenty yeras of the Western Part the Statal Fabricae were still working! So what did happen? Well, probably the local smiths produced what they could in a way more close as possible to the Roman models, so IMHO this is the story of the two-halved Frankish helmet, lately so famous and universally known as the typical Carolingian Helmet!

- It's a Romance stroy, as a Romance story is that of the axe, it's not a fransiska of course! It's made from a local smith on tha basis of the typical Roman Dolabra, then the Franks adopted the model already in production in Gaul.

- The angon instead is a Germanic weapon inspired by the Roman Pilum and then reintroduced in the Roman Army!

So nothing special in this soldier! He is a Romance miles, he don't know anything about the Empire and about the political situation, while he's marching towards The Catalaunian Fields.
He knows only that he will fight against men coming from the opposite bank of the Rhine, as did his father, and the father of his father and the father of the father of his father, and so on till memory can remember!
He doesn't understand a single word of the Language of the other bank of the Rhine, he knows only he has to fight again to defend the small piece of land that is the only way to survive for him and his family, he doesn't fight for Rome, he fights to defend Gaul! He doesn't know this detail but doing this he is alredy fighting for something else than the Empire, something smaller but more powerful....

He doesn't know that the Latin of the the Senatorial Aristocracy is dying while his Voulgar Latin will survive, he doesn't understand these things but his culture will survive, because it's strong! It's so strong that also the new Germanic ruling calss shall bow in front of this Romanic or Romance Culture, the Germanic aristocracy shall be forced to use not the Senatorial Latin but the Vulgar Language of this poor man!

So, let me say that I love this man! In the end probably because we have something in common: we are both speaking Vulgar Latin! I like the idea! As I like imagining this man marchingg not like an hero but like a simple man who must fight against Attila to save his land and his family, so while he's marching in the spring he's thinking to his wife, to his land, the grain in the fields without men to harvest it, he's sad and scared but he knows that he must fight.....


[Image: RomancebyCKT.jpg]

Sorry for the long post, I'll try to stop my verbosity, the issue is that I like the subject!
Sorry again dear friends!
Quote:[spoiler][Image: RomancebyCKT.jpg][/spoiler]

Interesting, the helmet almost has a Gallic ring to it..... especially with the mustache!
@Diocle, no, it was different back then. A parent would have taught their child Latin like a child today learns English; today to learn Latin you have to go through years of schooling and weeks of memorization, because it's not a natural language to us. Had our parents spoke it and taught it to us growing up, instead of English, it would be a first language and easy to speak.

As far as we know the Fabricae in at least ITaly (possibly the ones around Soissons) were still working, Ferreolus was able to supply both Roman and Gothic/Barbarian troops with Armor before the Battle of Chalons took place.

The first non-roman ridge helms of that era would have been similar to these:
[Image: tumblr_lgpwx3ZgMR1qg14gco1_400.jpg]

That's where the Carolingian helmet came from. You helmet is far too late to be Vth century. IXth century, sure.
Quote:@Diocle, no, it was different back then. A parent would have taught their child Latin like a child today learns English; today to learn Latin you have to go through years of schooling and weeks of memorization, because it's not a natural language to us. Had our parents spoke it and taught it to us growing up, instead of English, it would be a first language and easy to speak.

As far as we know the Fabricae in at least ITaly (possibly the ones around Soissons) were still working, Ferreolus was able to supply both Roman and Gothic/Barbarian troops with Armor before the Battle of Chalons took place.

The first non-roman ridge helms of that era would have been similar to these:


That's where the Carolingian helmet came from. You helmet is far too late to be Vth century. IXth century, sure.

Wrong example MMFA, the pic of Angus represents a looted Roman helmet during the campaign of Adrianople.

My helmet is in no way too late, instead IMHO it's perfect for the reasons why I decided to use it!

Anyway If you know some Ridge helmet from Gaul (not Concesti in Romania!) show me the exemplar, till then let me show, using my silly drawings, my personal hypothesis about what happened during the late V century in the Roman Gaul, when the public Fabricae were no more working.

I tried to depict an exemplar of helmet that can be the ancestor of the later Medieval exemplars.
So, according to your theory Diocle it would be a Roman ridge helmet, with what seems to be a Gallic bowl shape, that develops into the Frankish helm?
Quote:So, according to your theory Diocle it would be a Roman ridge helmet, with what seems to be a Gallic bowl shape, that develops into the Frankish helm?

Yes1 Exactly this was my intent! Thanks for having followed my perverted mind! Thank you! and Thank you again! finally there is someone who understood the poor old Diocle! Confusedmile:

What do you think? Am I mad or would it be possible?
Quote:What do you think? Am I mad or would it be possible?
You are mad Tongue
Now seriously.On the speculative level, why not?In the sense of speculative reconstruction it could exist,it is possible.But not on the basis of evidence we have.And those helmet findings from 5th century and post roman period which could be considered as ridge style(because of central band holding two main parts of the helmet)does not look in shape like those later Frankish,not even in contemporary art,until 9th or so,century.
Quote:Now seriously.On the speculative level, why not?In the sense of speculative reconstruction it could exist,it is possible.But not on the basis of evidence we have.And those helmet findings from 5th century and post roman period which could be considered as ridge style(because of central band holding two main parts of the helmet)does not look in shape like those later Frankish,not even in contemporary art,until 9th or so,century.


...Pavel, light of my eyes, dearest friend of mine, wonderful painter, good man and noble heart,.... can you show me a Ridge Helmet of the Intercisa type from Gaul, ......I'm very courious..... :whistle:
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