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I was very excited when I saw the riding outfit that was found in Antinoe on the cover of Roman Military Clothing (3) by Graham Sumner. Using the information from that book as a jumping off point, I have been working on more research. This is some info I have collected, and my first two attempts at the two versions of the coat.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1...=3&theater

I am curious if anyone has more information about the hooded dalmatica?
Hello Mary

I would be interested to see your results but I am not on facebook.

The best available book on the subject although a bit expensive is:

Riding Costume in Egypt: Origin and Appearance (Studies in textile & costume history) by Cacilia Fluck and Gillian Vogelsang-Eastwood (6 Nov 2003)

You might also be interested in:
Wearing the Cloak: Dressing the Soldier in Roman Times (Ancient Textiles) by Henriette Koefoed and Marie-Louise Nosch (15 Aug 2011)

Graham.
Hello Graham,

I would be thrilled for any feedback you have. Your books have been an awesome resource for me in my research on Roman clothing. So, thank you for that Smile I do have the Riding Costume of Egypt book, it is indeed well worth the money, but I still need to do some translation work on that. For the most part the measurements I used for the coats are true to those found on the extant samples, except I made the arms a bit wider.

I also have an appointment to see a swatch of the turquoise fabric, which resides in the Henry Art Gallery in Seattle, which should give me an idea of the actual fabric weight. I am curious if you are aware of on images of the hooded dalmatica?

I have uploaded the images on my Live Journal page, which I made public, so the images should be viewable there.

http://issylucrezia.livejournal.com/26140.html
Mary, looks like a very nice piece of workmanship!

Graham: Not on FB? Secumb to the dark side! mwah-ha-ha!!
Your reproduction is excellent! :-)

But: This coat was an Iranian one, not a Roman one ...
Very good work, and the photos are better than the FB ones. Thanks!
I like that top image - a recreation of one of Graham's drawings!!! Big Grin
Thanks for the compliments. If anyone has any further info, I am always interested to hear it Smile
I don't really think the origins of these coats have been that firmly established as yet. They were found in Antinoe, which was founded by the Romans, and under their rule until the mid-7th century. So far as I have found from my research (which included Graham's books, and the two other books he mentions above), the coat is dated to the time period the Romans held Antinoe, and the other things found in the site were Christian in origin. No coats like this have been found anywhere else in Persia, and these coats are made of cashmere, which is not like other Persian kaftans. It does have a very distinct Persian style to it, like the hanging sleeves, but there is other Roman artifacts that show the Romans did have coats and dalmaticas with those as well. This is one of the reason why I have found this item of such interest. I would be very interested in any other information you might have Smile

BTW, very nice blog.
Quote:Your reproduction is excellent! :-)

But: This coat was an Iranian one, not a Roman one ...

I don't really think the origins of these coats have been that firmly established as yet. They were found in Antinoe, which was founded by the Romans, and under their rule until the mid-7th century. So far as I have found from my research (which included Graham's books, and the two other books he mentions above), the coat is dated to the time period the Romans held Antinoe, and the other things found in the site were Christian in origin. No coats like this have been found anywhere else in Persia, and these coats are made of cashmere, which is not like other Persian kaftans. It does have a very distinct Persian style to it, like the hanging sleeves, but there is other Roman artifacts that show the Romans did have coats and dalmaticas with those as well. This is one of the reason why I have found this item of such interest. I would be very interested in any other information you might have Smile

BTW, very nice blog.
Beautiful work.
Ever since I saw this cloak in Grahams book I wanted one for myself.
So now I am quite jealous that someone beat me to it and also has done such a splendid recreation.
Quote:
daryush post=314798 Wrote:Your reproduction is excellent! :-)

But: This coat was an Iranian one, not a Roman one ...

I don't really think the origins of these coats have been that firmly established as yet. They were found in Antinoe, which was founded by the Romans, and under their rule until the mid-7th century. So far as I have found from my research (which included Graham's books, and the two other books he mentions above), the coat is dated to the time period the Romans held Antinoe, and the other things found in the site were Christian in origin. No coats like this have been found anywhere else in Persia, and these coats are made of cashmere, which is not like other Persian kaftans. It does have a very distinct Persian style to it, like the hanging sleeves, but there is other Roman artifacts that show the Romans did have coats and dalmaticas with those as well. This is one of the reason why I have found this item of such interest. I would be very interested in any other information you might have Smile

BTW, very nice blog.

Thank you.

In style, it is totally Iranian or Central Asian. You're right in noticing the long, tapered, hanging sleeves, but also not the small crossover with a squared off neckline, and the upper corner of the crossover is supposed to be folded over into a small lapel. A singular lapel was worn by junior-ranking people in Sogdiana in the 6th - 8th Centuries, whereas two lapels were worn by more senior ranking guys, but this might not always have been the case, as in Dokhtar-e-Noshirvan (3rd Century), a King is depicted with one lapel. And the coat he is wearing is very similar to this one.

I would expect more silk and a pearl roundel border on a typical Iranian coat but there have been textiles found made of cashmere wool and with geometric or floral designs rather than pearl roundels, so the lack of a pearl roundel and the lack of silk does not rule out an Iranian origin.

As for finds, there is a sleeveless coat from 8th Century Moshchevaya Balka that has a short crossver with lapel, but it is made from silk and has a separate skirt. There is another complete coat from 9th or 10th Century (IIRC) Khorasan which has a deeper lapel (it is sort of the next step in the development of these coats, as lapels got larger later on); it is made of linen with a silk woven border (the border matches another textile from the 4th Century, it is not a pearl roundel but a geometric one), has a square neckline, long sleeves that are rolled up, and a skirt integral with the rest of the coat.

The Sassanians ruled Egypt very briefly in the early 7th Century. It is possible that few coats might have been left there. Alternatively, Egypt and Iran are quite close and I'm sure coats like these appeared in trade from time to time.

Finally, even though the Romans might have copied Iranian and Central Asian coats, is the labelling of it as a "Roman coat" appropriate if it is totally Iranian / Central Asian in style and just copied by the Romans? Is there anything on the coat that marks it as Roman and not Iranian / Central Asian?
You make some interesting points, which I will have to come back and discuss some more after I have done some more translation. But I will make a couple of points.

- 7th Century seems to be very late for the current dating of these coats.
- The Ivory pyxis with St Menas shows a Roman with a similar coat slung over his shoulder
- There is also a 4th Coptic sarcophagus that shows a Roman with a tunic with hanging sleeves

These instances show that indeed the Romans had other garments with the long sleeves and hanging sleeves. This doesn't mean I disagree that the Antinoe coats are not Persian in origin, but when I call them "Roman riding coats", I am going under the impression that it was actually Romans who were wearing these particular garments.

Curious that you mention an 8th Century find in Moshchevaya Balka, as I have recently also been looking at a 9th C find from there, for another project I am working on.

FYI - I am loving this discussion, where I live no one knows anything about these coats Smile
Quote:- There is also a 4th Coptic sarcophagus that shows a Roman with a tunic with hanging sleeves
Image? Wink
A lot of the textiles from the Petrie collection have openings on the underarms, which means that one could technically put the arms through to keep cool. They generally are big enough to do that with - so that could have represented some of the imagery found on the 4th C sarcophagi
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