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Full Version: Kalkriese has nothing to do with the Teutoburg battles
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Quote:No the Teutoburg forest battles were not important for the overall history of the Roman Empire, and yes the excavations at Kalkriese were because that is nowhere near the location of the so called forest and Hermanns Denkmal.
However, as it appears now, Kalkriese has nothing to do with the Teutoburg battles, anyway... ^^
Would you care to elaborate on that information ?

M.VIB.M.
Sure. Actually, it´s all in the excavation reports.

Most books say that the excavation site is 30km2 large. That is correct. What they usually fail to state, is that the area in which around 90% of the objects were found, is roughly 400 by 100 m. Kalkriese 3 cleary states that the excavations did not bring the expected results. The large area is just the prospected area. Basically no finds in other places. So they turned to investigate the soil instead, since they somehow had to justify the enormous costs for the digs and prospections...

From the 400 by 100 m area are several inscriptions naming "COH I" and one "LPA", probably LEGIO I AUVGVSTA, not a legion being part of Varus´troop. Also it turned out recently that the wall continued northwards at its eastern end, closing the gap between the hill and the swamp (B. Dreyer). Had the Romans arrived from the East, they would have faced the backside of the wall.

ALL of the bone pits found so far produced 17(+1) human individuals (sic!), one of which was female. And other than usually published, the dental analysis of the mules showed that they died between Juli and September, which again, amazingly, is quoted in popular literature normally as "september", "fall" or "late summer", although the report in Kalkriese 2 is quite specific about this.

Now, just think... ^^
Quite interesting ! so the Varus' running battle location still eludes archaeologists !!

M.VIB.M.
Where can you get copies of this report?
Here:
Kalkriese 1
http://www.amazon.de/Kalkriese-Bd-1-Die-...24&sr=8-10
Kalkriese 2
[url:4n9awbjg]http://www.amazon.de/Kalkriese-Bd-2-Sondierungen-Kalkrieser-Niewedder-Senke/dp/3805333641/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265758983&sr=8-1[/url]
Kalkriese 3
[ur]lhttp://www.amazon.de/Kalkriese-Bd-3-Interdisziplinäre-Untersuchungen-Oberesch/dp/3805338023/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265759023&sr=8-5[/url]
Kalkriese 4
http://www.amazon.de/Kalkriese-Katalog-r...064&sr=8-1
Brilliant!!!

So, this 'batttle zone', IF part of the Varus battle, may have been what? Part of the route leading to the last battle site? Of course, most of us here already dismissed rthe idea that the Kalriese site was the one and only battle site, which we also come across too often in populare literature. For me, the main weakness so far was the failure to locate the camps, especially the last one, which should have been found relatively close to this site...

So if not the Varus battle, which one? Legio I Augusta? Anyone?
Part of the Battle at the Angrivarian Wall? At least we have a wall at Kalkriese...^^
I feel a 'The Debate' coming up. This point of the wall on the east end turning north is new (you didn't mention that last year)! and really does mess up all theories.
The last camp may be hard to locate if it was a "hasty" camp built up against a natural obstacle and using downed trees for part or all of the defenses instead of the standard ditch and berm. This type of camp was sometimes built under conditions of being hard pressed and loss of individual tools and the baggage train.
The 'new wall' may well have been the Germans closing off an escape route?

One problem I see is, has there been any attempt to follow the trail back east with metal detectors, to see if any finds are located?
That would seem to be a logical step.

Also I don't understand how you get "LEGIO I AUVGVSTA" from "COH I" and one "LPA" ?
Quote:Also I don't understand how you get "LEGIO I AUVGVSTA" from "COH I" and one "LPA" ?
If you question the acronym, my guess is LPA was interpreted as Legio Prima Augusta.
But was that an authentic way of enscribing a legions identity?
I am only familiar with the use of the numerals.

Edit:Having just seen the new (to me) thread on the Notitia Dignitatium, I see they record legions
in full text there, but wouldthat have been done on an inscription too?
Quote:One problem I see is, has there been any attempt to follow the trail back east with metal detectors, to see if any finds are located?
That would seem to be a logical step.

Yes, they found nothing. Kalkriese 3

Quote:If you question the acronym, my guess is LPA was interpreted as Legio Prima Augusta.
IIRC there are other such abbreviations in the same context.
Or: What else could it mean?
Quote:
Quote:If you question the acronym, my guess is LPA was interpreted as Legio Prima Augusta.
IIRC there are other such abbreviations in the same context.
Or: What else could it mean?


I don't know...I've not seen the actual inscription.... :wink:

Also, were senior personnel not moved between legions? Would they not tkae equipment with them?
Some of this equipment would have marking from the pther legions?

Also, were the Romans not heading east? Into German territory? So the previous trail of evidence from ambushes would then be to the west?
I hope this report is also in english, I have a bit of a problem with my German reading skills...... :?
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