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Full Version: new material on the web: pugio ? spatha ?
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Salve,<br>
look at the attached - in my view doubtful - pugio and the spatha with the odd handle. What do the experts think ?<br>
Was recently for sale on a notorious web auction site (:-).<br>
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<img src="http://sempires.com/A323.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
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30 cm long incl handle, blade 20 cm<br>
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and the "spatha" 92 long, blade 81 cm.<br>
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<img src="http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/aa/f0/e8_1.JPG" style="border:0;"/><br>
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<img src="http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/aa/5b/65_1.JPG" style="border:0;"/><br>
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Of course no info as to where it came from and if in a Roman layer.<br>
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And look at all those many handles that could get away as helmet handles, but are more likely just for boxes and glass urns:<br>
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<img src="http://i7.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/7f/11/d5_1.JPG" style="border:0;"/><br>
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<img src="http://i3.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/b5/60/7c_1_b.JPG" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/[email protected]>raeticus</A> at: 11/3/04 5:22 am<br></i>
Raetice,<br>
I'm no expert on iron or what it looks like immediately after being dug up after a couple of thousand years but from its shape the pugio looks as if it may be genuine. It has a type 'C' blade (isoceles triangular shape and faint or no midrib) and a type II tang. Admittedly the blade is very short but I know of at least one pugio of similar proportions (off the top of my head I think it was from Mehrum but I'll check when I get home). The daggers depicted on Brutus' coins after Caesar's assassination are also of similar proportions. The spatha looks extremely long to my mind and I don't understand the purpose of the odd looking rivet projecting from the tang, but I don't know enough about spathae to comment on its possible authenticity.<br>
I agree that the handles seem unlikely to be from helmets. The top one is a possibility but most of the ones I recall seeing in museums are in the form of two dolphins meeting nose to nose. I think the bottom handle is almost certainly from a piece of furniture (or perhaps glassware as you suggest) as it seems unlikely that the retaining lugs of the split pins would survive or at best remain in their original shape after being pulled through a small hole in a helmet neck guard during the act of detatching the handle from the helmet. A piece of wooden furniture however, could rot and disintegrate completely, while its metal fittings might remain in a more or less unchanged form, provided the furniture was not subject to any sudden movements as it fell apart. Of course, there is always the possibility of modern forgeries, but there are other members here better qualified to spot forgeries than me so I will leave that to them.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
oh well, good luck with this one<br>
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cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...3756889245<br>
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<img src="http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/af/83/80_1_b.JPG" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>
That's the problem with E-bay and all the items offered there: who dated this item? On whhat grounds? As soon as a detectorist or whoever pulls this from the soil, the context is gone and everyone can say what they want. I've seen plumbatae being offered as '1st c. javelins'.<br>
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So why would this be a Roman helmet? Because it vaguely looks like one?<br>
I'd say this is a Macedonian helmet or a 'Hellenistic' one.<br>
The 'edged' rim looks odd enough and I think the helmet would be worn pushed backwards more and with that brow band pushed down.<br>
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My 2 cents.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

Anonymous

I don't know about the pugio, but the sword can be dated anything from the La Tène period to the XIVth century A.D...<br>
As for the helmet it is not only a fake, but not even a good fake.<br>
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If it's a fake, what is it a fake of? The model is not familiar. <p></p><i></i>
No model is needed. Modern armorers have produced many 'fantasy' helmets only vaguely inspired by real models.<br>
The key to this helmet is the condition of the iron. Only from late medieval period on some pieces of armour have been lucky enough as to be stored inside acceptable environmental conditions inside buildings. Taken that for granted, the iron of the E-bay helmet is in an exceedingly good conservation, far better than even Roman helmets recovered in Egypt, which turns me rather skeptic... <br>
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Aitor<br>
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Anonymous

The helmet looks similar to a number of fakes made in Belgium in the late 19th. They were based on Trajan's column which had been popularised by a number of casts being given to various institutions around the world, and so the fakes were based on the stylised equipment on there.<br>
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Celer. <p></p><i></i>

Anonymous

Indeed, there are also depictions of soldiers on the west face of the Arch of Constantine (Cornuti?) wearing this style of helmet with feathers attached to the front.<br>
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Peronis. <p></p><i></i>